Greatest hope for Palestinians? Fundamentalist Jews

[Voltage]

Who wants to convert into the Haredi? It's people who actually are converting out of religious conviction, since Haredi are like the only Jews who follow the 613 commandments of the halakha, or Jewish law. Most converts to reform and conservative Judaism, like Giffords, convert either for marriage or image reasons. That's why the Orthodox call such conversions "fictitious and insincere", which is often the case. Also, you're wrong in the sense that Orthodox Jews accept reform Jews as being actually Jewish. As long as the reform jew doesn't have a gentile mother, he/she will be considered Jewish. If you have a Jewish mother, you will be considered universally Jewish by allt he sects, even if you are an atheist or whatever. The reason some American Jews face a lot of doubt is because of their high intermarriage with gentiles. 50% of American Jews marry a gentile.

Let me explain something simple to you since clearly your understand of this is limited to a few readings in between. If you convert to Judaism (Reconstruction, Conservative, or if it happens Orthodox)

If your mother is a Jew, you are half-Jewish by ethnicity, and fully Jewish according to Jewish law.

If your father is a Jew, you are half-Jewish by ethnicity, and not Jewish at all according to Jewish law.

Atheists who are Jewish by ethnicity, may consider themselves Jewish by ethnicity only (and allowed to be stoned according to the Torah) .

Gabrille Gifford's father is Jewish and her grandfather an Orthodox rabbi. According to the Orthodox, since she converted to Reform (not considered Jewish by the Orthodox don't know where you got your info) and her mother was not one she is not Jewish by religion or ethnicity.

Being fully Jewish is a cross-section of being religious Jewish and a Jewish ethnic identity built over thousands of years in exile and a specific insular sub-group.

One of my best friends since 6 grade is a Conservative Jew and I witnessed both bat Mitzvahs and some holiday meals including my extensive reading on them. Don't argue if you don't know.

[union]

When was the last time an Orthodox Jew stoned a child who has become an apostate?

I can give you plenty cases of wahabist parents trying to "honor kill" their children though.

When was the last time there was a Torah run state? Do you understand this is exactly the reason the Hasidic pictured in the first page do not support Israel and consider it an abomination? They are not Zionist because they do not support a state with a constitution other than the Torah, exactly the same thing Islamists want; a state run by the Qur'an and not man made constitution. Again what is the difference for you to sing song about one group very similar to another group you attack? Again brother, the term hypocrisy needs your reading up on.

The Hasidic Jews, for the most part, don't support Israel because it wasn't establish by the messiah. It has nothing to do with the torah being the constitution or not.

And argue as you may, Orthodox Judaism is no where near extreme as Fundamentalist Islam. Do you see Orthodox Jews blowing up buildings? Even the Hasidic who despise Israel, you'd never see them fly planes into buildings. Do you see Orthodox Jews pressing for women to be whipped in public, or for the stoning of adulterers? Wahabist Islam poses a worldwide threat, and you cannot argue Orthodox Judaism does. You may find a fringe rabbi here and there who digs up some archaic passage from the torah justifying whatever savage and misogynistic punishment, but the mainstream Orthodox community has not shown the extremism of organizations such as the taliban. I'm shocked that you are arguing that the peaceful Orthodox Jews who while xenophobic have done nothing to me, are deserving of the same contempt as the wahabists who have abused every Islamic text and have defamed the religion and caused tens of thousands of deaths worldwide.

[Voltage]

Man good luck. This is getting repetitive.

[Voltage]

As for one of the main reasons why Hasidic don't support the Israeli state, from the main Hasidic group opposed to Israeli state

Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

They want a torah run state, the entire compass of the Torah, which also includes stoning apostates.

[union]

Who wants to convert into the Haredi? It's people who actually are converting out of religious conviction, since Haredi are like the only Jews who follow the 613 commandments of the halakha, or Jewish law. Most converts to reform and conservative Judaism, like Giffords, convert either for marriage or image reasons. That's why the Orthodox call such conversions "fictitious and insincere", which is often the case. Also, you're wrong in the sense that Orthodox Jews accept reform Jews as being actually Jewish. As long as the reform jew doesn't have a gentile mother, he/she will be considered Jewish. If you have a Jewish mother, you will be considered universally Jewish by allt he sects, even if you are an atheist or whatever. The reason some American Jews face a lot of doubt is because of their high intermarriage with gentiles. 50% of American Jews marry a gentile.

Let me explain something simple to you since clearly your understand of this is limited to a few readings in between. If you convert to Judaism (Reconstruction, Conservative, or if it happens Orthodox)

If your mother is a Jew, you are half-Jewish by ethnicity, and fully Jewish according to Jewish law.

If your father is a Jew, you are half-Jewish by ethnicity, and not Jewish at all according to Jewish law.

Atheists who are Jewish by ethnicity, may consider themselves Jewish by ethnicity only (and allowed to be stoned according to the Torah) .

Gabrille Gifford's father is Jewish and her grandfather an Orthodox rabbi. According to the Orthodox, since she converted to Reform (not considered Jewish by the Orthodox don't know where you got your info) and her mother was not one she is not Jewish by religion or ethnicity.

Being fully Jewish is a cross-section of being religious Jewish and a Jewish ethnic identity built over thousands of years in exile and a specific insular sub-group.

One of my best friends since 6 grade is a Conservative Jew and I witnessed both bat Mitzvahs and some holiday meals including my extensive reading on them. Don't argue if you don't know.

They don't make a differentiation between "ethnic Jews" and "religious Jews". If you're a Jew you're a Jew. That's why all the pork eating atheist Jews still show up to synagogue on yom kippur. On the fundamental level, both the practicing Jew and the non practicing Jew are still Jewish. Jews believe they have a "Jewish soul" that enters a person either during birth or conversation, and thus their Jewishness has nothing to do with observance. Like you said, Giffords is not considered Jewish by the Orthodox, but a legitimate convert is considered fully Jewish. In fact, it is even blasphemous to mention the fact they are a convert, let alone call them "non ethnically Jewish" or something like that.

[union]

As for one of the main reasons why Hasidic don't support the Israeli state, from the main Hasidic group opposed to Israeli state

Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

They want a torah run state, the entire compass of the Torah, which also includes stoning apostates.

Obeying the torah means not establishing a state without the messiah. Even if the Zionists completely enforced all 613 commandments, the Neturei Karta would still call for the dismantlement of the state of Israel. That's what I've been trying to explain to you.



EDIT:

From your very source:


"Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law."

All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.

Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.

http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/index.cfm


So like I told you, they don't want a "torah run" state. They want no Jewish state. Understand?

[melo]

Union: Answer

But this is an ethnic superiority legislated by GOD HIMSELF. That makes it infinitely more dangerous

How can you compare legislated things with man made seperation? The goyim seperation is the same as the seperated between Muslimiin and kaafiruun, only that a goyim is by birth while a muslim can convert

[LobsterUnit]

Many religious jews are still pro zionist. I think they actually outnumber the anti-zionists, who are in the minority.

[union]

Union: Answer

But this is an ethnic superiority legislated by GOD HIMSELF. That makes it infinitely more dangerous

How can you compare legislated things with man made seperation? The goyim seperation is the same as the seperated between Muslimiin and kaafiruun, only that a goyim is by birth while a muslim can convert

I told you, if you feel so slighted by the fact you've been born a goyim...you can always convert. And it's not an "ethnic superiority "as they will accept conversions from about any race, that's why the falasha jews of Ethiopia have been accepted as one of the "chosen" and have subsequently been allowed to make aliyah to Israel.

I don't think Jews are anything special nor have they been anointed by God like they claim, so I truly do not care about whatever fictitious stories they create to inflate their egos. Yes they believe that God has chosen them to be close to him, but so what? So do the Zoroastrians of Iran, and they don't accept conversions. If you look at the world, you'll find plenty of communities that have superiority complexes supported by religion. The Jews aren't unique in this case.

[melo]

Union: Answer

But this is an ethnic superiority legislated by GOD HIMSELF. That makes it infinitely more dangerous

How can you compare legislated things with man made seperation? The goyim seperation is the same as the seperated between Muslimiin and kaafiruun, only that a goyim is by birth while a muslim can convert

I told you, if you feel so slighted by the fact you've been born a goyim...you can always convert. And it's not an "ethnic superiority "as they will accept conversions from about any race, that's why the falasha jews of Ethiopia have been accepted as one of the "chosen" and have subsequently been allowed to make aliyah to Israel.

I don't think Jews are anything special nor have they been anointed by God like they claim, so I truly do not care about whatever fictitious stories they create to inflate their egos. Yes they believe that God has chosen them to be close to him, but so what? So do the Zoroastrians of Iran, and they don't accept conversions. If you look at the world, you'll find plenty of communities that have superiority complexes supported by religion. The Jews aren't unique in this case.

But the jews are using this superiority complex through religion to gumaysi a whole people. The zoroastrians do not harm anyone.

The falasha jews are being treated like second class citizens, with even xabash ladies saying that they are trying to steralize them. And remember, the falasha are actual jews through lineage. They didn't "convert", they were always jewish. Or so they say.

Suggesting that your ethnic superiority was legislated by God himself is absolutely indefensible. I'm sorry. And when you use that complex to insult people and gumaysi an entire ethnic group, you are a mujrim.

[union]

But the jews are using this superiority complex through religion to gumaysi a whole people. The zoroastrians do not harm anyone.

The falasha jews are being treated like second class citizens, with even xabash ladies saying that they are trying to steralize them. And remember, the falasha are actual jews through lineage. They didn't "convert", they were always jewish. Or so they say.

Suggesting that your ethnic superiority was legislated by God himself is absolutely indefensible. I'm sorry. And when you use that complex to insult people and gumaysi an entire ethnic group, you are a mujrim.

Israel is a secular democracy where people have rights regardless of their religion or whether or not they've been "chosen". Granted many of these laws are often ignored by bigoted Jews who engulfed in self righteousness, but legally the falasha and the Arab Israelis are equal citizens. When attacking Israel, you should take care not to attack Judaism, but the individuals who have usurped the symbols of the Jewish people and have created a secular state (not religious) that often violates human rights. Do you think the Jews kill the Arabs simply because they think they are chosen? No, they do it because they want the land. Simple.

I understand you have issue with how Jews view themselves, but there's honestly nothing anyone can do about that. This thread was designed to simply show the rift between the religious Jews who reject Israeli sovereignty, and the secular pseudo Jews who exploit Judaism to further their own ends. Both believe they are chosen, but one faction is a lot more amiable and better to deal with.

[melo]

Israel is a secular democracy where people have rights regardless of their religion or whether or not they've been "chosen". Granted many of these laws are often ignored by bigoted Jews who engulfed in self righteousness, but legally the falasha and the Arab Israelis are equal citizens

Often these laws are ignored by politicians and superiors. Institutionalized racism is rife in Israel. The only difference with the Jewish case, is that God himself legislated their superiority.

Lets not forget that at one time (not sure if this still in existence) but Arab Israelis had different car plates than Jewish israelis.

When attacking Israel, you should take care not to attack Judaism, but the individuals who have usurped the symbols of the Jewish people and have created a secular state (not religious) that often violates human rights. Do you think the Jews kill the Arabs simply because they think they are chosen? No, they do it because they want the land. Simple.

The Jewish God said that they were his chosen people, and that they were superior by birth to other ethnicities. That is written in their holy books and orthodox priests will tell you this proudly. It is why the gumaysi of the palestinians to these jews means nothing. They have been persecuting Palestinians for centuries. The old testament is a witness to that.

And they don't kill Arabs simply because they are chosen, but it helps them legitimize their butchering of the arabs. The Arabs are inferior, and if inferior species are attacking you, you can smoke all of them.

I understand you have issue with how Jews view themselves, but there's honestly nothing anyone can do about that. This thread was designed to simply show the rift between the religious Jews who reject Israeli sovereignty, and the secular pseudo Jews who exploit Judaism to further their own ends. Both believe they are chosen, but one faction is a lot more amiable and better to deal with.

They're both snakes as far as i'm concerned. I'd be wary.