Exclusive leaked CIA torture video on muslims

[union]

A government should work to maintain infrastructure and uphold law and order and that is all. Why should religion matter in this regard?

[melo]

A government should work to maintain infrastructure and uphold law and order and that is all. Why should religion matter in this regard?

Have you ever read the Quran and Hadiths bro?

[union]

Of course. And they say that Muslims have free will in this world to do as they please, but have been advised by God to live by his laws. If a state started implementing shariah, not only would it inevitability abuse those powers but it would also take away the free will of people. Are people going to follow Islam for the sake of God, or from fear of draconian punishment by radical mullahs? That is the question.

And of course secularism is superior. Look at all the successful Muslim nation: Turkey, Lebanon, Malaysia, etc all are secular states that have thrived. Then look at South Somalia, Afgahnistan, etc and you'll see why shariah law is good in theory but never in practice.

[melo]

Of course. And they say that Muslims have free will in this world to do as they please, but have been advised by God to live by his laws. If a state started implementing shariah, not only would it inevitability abuse those powers but it would also take away the free will of people. Are people going to follow Islam for the sake of God, or from fear of draconian punishment by radical mullahs? That is the question.

And of course secularism is superior. Look at all the successful Muslim nation: Turkey, Lebanon, Malaysia, etc all are secular states that have thrived. Then look at South Somalia, Afgahnistan, etc and you'll see why shariah law is good in theory but never in practice.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it seems that you don't know your history or Quran well.

1- We haven't been "advised" to follow God's laws. It is command. There are numerous Quranic verses which explicitly say this. Furthemore, there is an Ijmaac amongst Sunni and SHIICA scholars even that Secularlism is kufr. Its too clear to deny.

2- I believe education should preceed the implementation of the Sharia. A lot of Muslims are mistrusting of the Sharia. Education would show why Sharia is beautfil and flexible. It is after all, Allah SWT's law. God does not descend laws that cannot be implemented.

3- This is cherry picking sxb. Sharia law was, when implemented in conjunction with actual caalims thrived. I'm sure you know your history, and you should know the Umayyads & Abbasaids all ruled by Sharia. The ottomans got worse as they went away away from Sharia. When Sharia is implemented correctly with wisdom, you progress materially but also spritually.

If Sharia law was so stiffling, how do you explain the Muslim world's progression when they actually implemented properly? The Non muslims europeans only progressed when they dump their church and bible. The Muslims on the other hand have gotten WORSE by departing from Islam. You speak about turkey, but the greatest period in Turkish history was undoubtedly the Ottomans era, where sharia was implemented.

You think that implementing Sharia in its ideal way or at least at a competent level is not realistic. I disagree. We must first educate..


" And Governance is for Allah"
" And whoever doesn't rule by what Allah has revealed, then they are transgressors"


PS, Shabaab and the Taliban do not disprove anything sxb. That is a straw man argument.

[melo]

Islam tries to ground the individual as a creation of Allah. He is not a material object who is subject to his desires. He has a purpose, a greater meaning. He is just not a commodity. Secularlism and liberalism believe that the truth resides in the Individual, not god. The individual derives meaning. Islam meanwhile believes Allah SWT does.

So the question is, seeing as how Allah SWT said that he only created us to worship him, which system is more Islam? Sharia or Liberalism? And i say liberalism, because communist countries were also secular, but they materially failed.

[union]

Of course. And they say that Muslims have free will in this world to do as they please, but have been advised by God to live by his laws. If a state started implementing shariah, not only would it inevitability abuse those powers but it would also take away the free will of people. Are people going to follow Islam for the sake of God, or from fear of draconian punishment by radical mullahs? That is the question.

And of course secularism is superior. Look at all the successful Muslim nation: Turkey, Lebanon, Malaysia, etc all are secular states that have thrived. Then look at South Somalia, Afgahnistan, etc and you'll see why shariah law is good in theory but never in practice.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as it seems that you don't know your history or Quran well.

1- We haven't been "advised" to follow God's laws. It is command. There are numerous Quranic verses which explicitly say this. Furthemore, there is an Ijmaac amongst Sunni and SHIICA scholars even that Secularlism is kufr. Its too clear to deny.

By "advised" I mean we have a choice on whether to follow God's laws or not. God will reward those who follow his commands with heaven, and damn those who disobey him with hellfire, in the hereafter. And those scholars have a right to their opinion , doesn't make it necessary true. Those very same scholars constantly accuse one another of kufr as well, like the the sunni and shiah you mentioned.

2- I believe education should preceed the implementation of the Sharia. A lot of Muslims are mistrusting of the Sharia. Education would show why Sharia is beautfil and flexible. It is after all, Allah SWT's law. God does not descend laws that cannot be implemented.

Beautiful and flexible in theory. But in practice we have seen only cruelty, barbarity, backwardness and generally unpleasant behavior. When you find these mystical all wise mullahs who will save us from the ignorance of Al Shabab, kindly let us know.

3- This is cherry picking sxb. Sharia law was, when implemented in conjunction with actual caalims thrived. I'm sure you know your history, and you should know the Umayyads & Abbasaids all ruled by Sharia. The ottomans got worse as they went away away from Sharia. When Sharia is implemented correctly with wisdom, you progress materially but also spritually.

How am I cherry picking? I gave modern examples of successful Muslim nations, while you reached back to ancient history. And only the four righteously guided caliphs after Prophet Muhammad were successful, the rest of the ummayads were corrupt and have been described as the "the cursed tree". And if I do remember, these caliphates became hereditary monarchies where weak and ineffectual caliphs ruled by claiming to represent the will of God. Truly you don't want that?

If Sharia law was so stiffling, how do you explain the Muslim world's progression when they actually implemented properly? The Non muslims europeans only progressed when they dump their church and bible. The Muslims on the other hand have gotten WORSE by departing from Islam. You speak about turkey, but the greatest period in Turkish history was undoubtedly the Ottomans era, where sharia was implemented.

The Ottomans declined because the Europeans after the enlightenment beat them out. The secular revolution lead by Kemal Attaturk rescued the declining country and turned into the economic powerhouse it is today. Can you explain the success of secular Muslim nations, and secular non Muslim nations of this modern day? I know you feel nostalgic about the passed days of conquest and empire, but I'm sorry to tell you they aren't coming back. You won't be liberating Jerusalem with a horse and sword sxb.




You think that implementing Sharia in its ideal way or at least at a competent level is not realistic. I disagree. We must first educate..


Manshallah Al Shabab and the Taliban have done great work for secularism, and have given the public all the "education" we can bare.



And of course sovereignty belongs to Allah. But when he created this world he gave humans free will. Those who transgress will be punished by him. Don't try to usurp God's authority.

[ToughGong]

[youtube]8oeezWwc-aw&feature=related[/youtube]

[grandpakhalif]

Melo I would not argue with a kaafir, Allah warned us that some disbeleivers shall never believe.

[zaahidun]

please dont call him kaffir ,he is a confused and not sure what he believes , dad sidiisa oo kale wey jiraan waxa loo soo aqriyay iyo goobtuu ku noolyahay hadal haynteeda ayaa maskaxda ka qabsatay oo basic ayuu ka wareeray (islamic shariica iney ka fiican tahay secularism ) maxaa yeelay wuxuusan aqrin diintiisa wexey qabto .

union : maskaxda hadii upside down loo gadiyo sida koobka oo kale wanaaga mafahmeyso lakin marka aad open mind diintaada u baarto eedan dhageysan oday philosophy ku dhamaatay hadalkiisa bas laga yaaba inuu cadow ku yahay waxaad aaminsantahay . la soco baraamijyada diiiniga ee ka baxa chennal ka peace tv wax yaalo badan ood ku murmayso ayya lagaa shaafinaa hab cilmiyeysan eed fahmi karto ayaana lagu qaadaadhigaa arimaha , diinta islaamka hadaad si dhab ah u daalacato waxaad dhadhamineysaa macaanka diinta lakin hadii qaladaad dad muslimiin ah sameeyeen lagaaga faaideysto oo diintaada lagu nacsiiyo waa weak nimo , wax yaalo badan oo hal dhan aad ka aragtay ayaad ogaaneysaa xaqiiqdooda. wadada suuban alle hanagu toosiyo

[union]

please dont call him kaffir ,he is a confused and not sure

Compared to grandpa and the likes in this thread, I am the least confused oh patronizing one.

[melo]

By "advised" I mean we have a choice on whether to follow God's laws or not. God will reward those who follow his commands with heaven, and damn those who disobey him with hellfire, in the hereafter. And those scholars have a right to their opinion , doesn't make it necessary true. Those very same scholars constantly accuse one another of kufr as well, like the the sunni and shiah you mentioned.

The basis of Islamic Law is 4.

The Quran
The Sunnah
The Ijmaac
Ijtihaad

Secularlism being absolute kufr ticks the first 3 boxes. This isn't an opinion saaxib. Secularlism being kufr is as concrete as Prayer being waajib. Secondly, Allah SWT said that when you don't know, go to the people of knowledge. You cannot interpret religious texts on your own, because you don't have the expertise to do so. The same goes with Scientific fields. There is a reason why Scholars of the past spent their whole lives learning the Diin. There is a lot to learn, but the basics are easy to grasp

Beautiful and flexible in theory. But in practice we have seen only cruelty, barbarity, backwardness and generally unpleasant behavior. When you find these mystical all wise mullahs who will save us from the ignorance of Al Shabab, kindly let us know.

Education saaxib, Education. This is the key. It won't happen over night, but Allah SWT himself promised that Islam would succeed over every world view point. Do you think Allah SWT's promise is unattainable?

How am I cherry picking? I gave modern examples of successful Muslim nations, while you reached back to ancient history. And only the four righteously guided caliphs after Prophet Muhammad were successful, the rest of the ummayads were corrupt and have been described as the "the cursed tree". And if I do remember, these caliphates became hereditary monarchies where weak and ineffectual caliphs ruled by claiming to represent the will of God. Truly you don't want that?

It is cherry picking, because you are using the examples you want to use to prove your point, whilst glossing over examples which dispell your theory. Only the four righteously guided khalifas were successful? Really? Islam reached its pinnacle as a civilization under the rulership of the umayyads and the Abbsadis. Cleary you don't know your history saaxib. It was under their rulership that Islam expanded to Spain, develop mathematical methods, developed the scientific method, developed medical techniques etc. Even Cadaan people recognize the progressive nature of the Muslim world at this time. Heck, Europe only got soap with their interaction with the Muslim world.

My point of bringing up the Umayyads and Abbasaids is that they ruled by SHARIICA, not Secularlism, and yet they thrived materially. If Shariica law is stiffling, how do you explain this? While europe was in their dark ages, the Muslim world under SHARIICA (not secularlism) was progressive. Cadaan people even accept this history. Explain that to me.

The Ottomans declined because the Europeans after the enlightenment beat them out. The secular revolution lead by Kemal Attaturk rescued the declining country and turned into the economic powerhouse it is today. Can you explain the success of secular Muslim nations, and secular non Muslim nations of this modern day? I know you feel nostalgic about the passed days of conquest and empire, but I'm sorry to tell you they aren't coming back. You won't be liberating Jerusalem with a horse and sword sxb.

The Ottomans declined as they left their religion. They diluted their Islamic law, wine became available, sexual promiscuity became common amongst the masses. Again, if you read Turkish history, you can see the Ottomans DECLINED religiously, and by the end couldn't even be considered an Islamic empire. Their pinnacale was when they implemented Islam as its law. This pinncale FAR OUT SHINES modern day Turkey, who beg Europe for EU membership . Success kulaha.. the Turks back in the day were conquering countries and were one of the most developed empire in the world, the envy of europe.

Secondly, our prophet saws said that empires falls and rise. He predicted in xadiiths that the Muslims will fall as a civilization, although their numbers will be in many. It is the Sunnah of Allah SWT. The Fact that secular countries are more materially successful than the countries who supposedly are more Islamic does not mean a thing. It is simply a reflection of exploitation by capitalist society ( i say capitalist, because Communist countries were also secular, but failed materially- Hint, secularism is not the defining factor here, free market capitalism is) and the lack of wisdom in the Muslim world when implementing Islamic law, as well as the nature of the Muslims today (the prophet saws said that muslims will be many, but their worth would be like the froth on the sea ie useless).

Finally, as i mentioned above, do not conflate secularism with capitalism. Cuba was secular, but materially they suffered. The same with Cambodia, Soviet union bloc, vietnam etc. Secular countries which can't be considered successful.

Manshallah Al Shabab and the Taliban have done great work for secularism, and have given the public all the "education" we can bare.

Simple question

Do you think Allah SWT would command us to follow Laws, that are not realistic? That aren't implementable? Really? Forgetting the fact that this is a historical fallacy, do you really believe this? Do you think Allah SWT is lying when he says that Islam will obliterate all other systems, including liberalism and secularlism?


Shariica law will never be implemented perfectly, but neither is secularism or liberalism. Our Job is to implement it to the best of our ability. Through out islamic history, Shariica law was implemented at a competent level, and Muslims thrived. Muslims went backward when they left their diin.

You seem to lack in Faith in God. You lack faith that even though he said he would make his religion victorious. You lack faith in the laws he prescribed, although he commanded us to follow them. You lack in faith in his sovereignty. Yacni, i want to ask you union. Do you doubt Allah SWT? Because it sounds like you have been so defeated mentally, that you've been convinced the God of Islaam is a liar .

There is a famous quote by Cumar to the effect " Islam raises Muslims. Who ever tries to succeed using another platform, will be humiliated".

Look at turkey, begging the EU for membership. 600 years ago they were bitch slapping europe
Look at Iraaq- Bacath Party- Secular leadership, yet humuliated
Look at Lebanon
Look at EgyPT- 1967 WAR, humiliation

The Muslim world will only rise through Islaam. Take Cumar words and think about it.

[Kukri]

2- I believe education should preceed the implementation of the Sharia. A lot of Muslims are mistrusting of the Sharia. Education would show why Sharia is beautfil and flexible. It is after all, Allah SWT's law. God does not descend laws that cannot be implemented.

You think that implementing Sharia in its ideal way or at least at a competent level is not realistic. I disagree. We must first educate..
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[melo]

Union: Our primary purpose of existence is to worship Allah SWT. Our primary existence is not to chase material things. How then, can you worship Allah SWT, when you reject his laws, calling them unimplementable, and doubt his explicit statements in the Quran?

Have faith in the God that created you. He commanded you to follow his laws. He said he will make his diin succeed. Have faith in this. Your comments mocking Islaam eventually rising is sad walahi.

[Kukri]

^^Now this melo above make more sense than the Shi'a hating melo.

[Kukri]

I for one doubt that Union is Muslim. He is here to cause confusion amongst unsuspecting faraxs/xalimos by pretending to be Muslim while all along undermining and mocking the Islam.