When will we recapture Jerusalem?

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IRONm@N
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by IRONm@N »

Meru wrote:
IRONm@N wrote: well meru, that is what I'm here for, to educate. next time do your own research.
and as I said, Kenyan education system, like most of African countries is borderline Western propaganda. most of the books are outdated, and written during the colonial era. most photos are blond hair, blue eyed kids, and most of the views expressed are from Western European viewpoint with no regard for culture and history of the world. they started from the 18 century, and if they need to go back, they jump to Greek and Roman empires, which is the 4 and 5 century, and than they jump back to their rainiasences period, they don't talk about what was in between, from 6-17 century.
well said brother. but you are a lone voice in the jungle,majority of people dont know this atleast for me it was an eye opener. :up: the only muslim history we were taught was about jihad and slaughter of innocent people forcing them to convert into islam
never rely school to get education, its an indoctronation or propaganda center for governments and coroperations to manufacture cookie cutter employees that are loyal to the ruling class.
at best you learn school how and where to get education, alot depends what you do on your own and the exprience you gain after school.
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Grant
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

IRONm@N wrote:
Meru wrote:^^^there has never been a time when muslims controlled the world, never,do not lie,the ottoman just controlled the middle east
I don't blame you, you are Kenyan, what do you know about world politics and history. as much as Kenya concerned , they learned all their world history from their British colonizers.

Islam caliphate was one of the longest ruling administration, more than any other empire in the world. almost over 1300yrs of continues rule, defeated the Romans, defeated the Persians, and defeated the Byzantine empires. the whole of the Western rule (British, America, Russia) are controling the world for just 100yrs, just from the collapse of Ottaman empire 1900 to now 2011.
what do you know about the 6 century, the 7 century, the 8, 9, 10,11,12,13,14,15, 16 and 17 centuries? ever heard of Abubakar, Omar, Osman and Ali, men who invented elections, democracy, welfare, tax and many laws used today. what about the Abassad empire for 500yrs, Ummayd empire for 500yrs, Ottaman empire for 400yrs.
you know who invented chemistry, algebra, the number zero, astronomy, trenches, toothpaste, soap, perfume, coffee, and many of the things you use today?
you think its your masters? I don't blame you again, because your history started with the British.
I am having troubles with your version of history:

The Islamic "Caliphate" was a series of dynastic struggles, not a continuous administration.

The end of the Roman Empire is usually considered to be the sack of Rome by the Goths, before the birth of Mohammed; it didn't exist in Islamic times.

The Byzantine Empire was defeated by the Latin Fourth Crusade; the Ottoman's just picked up the pieces.

Islamic scholars transmitted Greek scientific knowledge from the 4-6th centuries B.C; They borrowed extensively from both Middle Eastern and Eastern sources; but translation and use is not invention. Arabic numerals, yes; but the"zero" most likely comes from India.

Coffee is native to both Yemen and Ethiopia. Are you sure it has only been known since the 7th century? My guess is that it was an earlier Arabic or Ethiopian discovery, spread later under the Empires.

You forgot one very significant Islamic invention: the distillation of alcohol.

Grant
Last edited by Grant on Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Meru »

thank you grant for bringing forth this information,i was beginning to doubt my history,ironman almost caught me. are you christian? and what ethnicity,i think you are not somali
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

Meru wrote:thank you grant for bringing forth this information,i was beginning to doubt my history,ironman almost caught me. are you christian? and what ethnicity,i think you are not somali
I am a white American and inactive Mormon.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Meru »

very good Grant,i am a kenyan,its good we have people like you here,then the knowledge can be diverse. AM VERY HAPPY THE LATIN CRUSADERS LAY TO WASTE THE BYZANTINE empire,i have always admired crusaders and i consider myself one today. anyway seems you know history well thats good to keep check many misinformed people at snet. why did you join this forum?
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

Meru,

I taught ESL at the Government school in Jilib in 1966-67. I came here originally trying unsuccessfully to locate friends from that period, and stuck around for a while to catch up on history and answer questions I still had. This is unusual for me to post here these days.

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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Colonel »

Meru wrote:very good Grant,i am a kenyan,its good we have people like you here,then the knowledge can be diverse. AM VERY HAPPY THE LATIN CRUSADERS LAY TO WASTE THE BYZANTINE empire,i have always admired crusaders and i consider myself one today. anyway seems you know history well thats good to keep check many misinformed people at snet. why did you join this forum?
My friend Meru from the land of Masai Mara, did you know that the 4th crusade's objective was to recapture the holy land from the great Muslim army? but instead they went to Constantinople to fight fellow Christians and destroy the City. This was done because the 4th crusade did not get as many volunteers as expected which in itself is understandable after the failures of the 3rd crusade. The pope himself ordered the crusaders not to attack constantinople but his call fell on death ears since the crusade leaders were more interested in financial gains.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by IRONm@N »

Anybody who takes crusaders as legitimate force or something to be emulated or idolized doesn't know anythng about them.

The crusaders were a bunch of rugtag pagans, that just went into raping, looting and killing spree on their way to Jerusalem, most of them died of hunger and thirst before they ever reach anywhere, they are even reported to cannabalize their way to Jerusalem, eating people, and killing Muslims, Jews and Christian alike, this tells you they weren't organized and had no purpose.
they have been defeated thousands of times by Muslim armies, and most of them converted to Islam after they captured a Islamic town
Last edited by IRONm@N on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by IRONm@N »

Grant wrote:
IRONm@N wrote:
Meru wrote:^^^there has never been a time when muslims controlled the world, never,do not lie,the ottoman just controlled the middle east
I don't blame you, you are Kenyan, what do you know about world politics and history. as much as Kenya concerned , they learned all their world history from their British colonizers.

Islam caliphate was one of the longest ruling administration, more than any other empire in the world. almost over 1300yrs of continues rule, defeated the Romans, defeated the Persians, and defeated the Byzantine empires. the whole of the Western rule (British, America, Russia) are controling the world for just 100yrs, just from the collapse of Ottaman empire 1900 to now 2011.
what do you know about the 6 century, the 7 century, the 8, 9, 10,11,12,13,14,15, 16 and 17 centuries? ever heard of Abubakar, Omar, Osman and Ali, men who invented elections, democracy, welfare, tax and many laws used today. what about the Abassad empire for 500yrs, Ummayd empire for 500yrs, Ottaman empire for 400yrs.
you know who invented chemistry, algebra, the number zero, astronomy, trenches, toothpaste, soap, perfume, coffee, and many of the things you use today?
you think its your masters? I don't blame you again, because your history started with the British.
I am having troubles with your version of history:

The Islamic "Caliphate" was a series of dynastic struggles, not a continuous administration.

The end of the Roman Empire is usually considered to be the sack of Rome by the Goths, before the birth of Mohammed; it didn't exist in Islamic times.

The Byzantine Empire was defeated by the Latin Fourth Crusade; the Ottoman's just picked up the pieces.

Islamic scholars transmitted Greek scientific knowledge from the 4-6th centuries B.C; They borrowed extensively from both Middle Eastern and Eastern sources; but translation and use is not invention. Arabic numerals, yes; but the"zero" most likely comes from India.

Coffee is native to both Yemen and Ethiopia. Are you sure it has only been known since the 7th century? My guess is that it was an earlier Arabic or Ethiopian discovery, spread later under the Empires.

You forgot one very significant Islamic invention: the distillation of alcohol.

Grant
Grant you are suffering from the same disease as Meru, which is selective memory. research those stuff I wrote up there, its not something out of my mind
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by udun »

Grant wrote:
IRONm@N wrote: I don't blame you, you are Kenyan, what do you know about world politics and history. as much as Kenya concerned , they learned all their world history from their British colonizers.

Islam caliphate was one of the longest ruling administration, more than any other empire in the world. almost over 1300yrs of continues rule, defeated the Romans, defeated the Persians, and defeated the Byzantine empires. the whole of the Western rule (British, America, Russia) are controling the world for just 100yrs, just from the collapse of Ottaman empire 1900 to now 2011.
what do you know about the 6 century, the 7 century, the 8, 9, 10,11,12,13,14,15, 16 and 17 centuries? ever heard of Abubakar, Omar, Osman and Ali, men who invented elections, democracy, welfare, tax and many laws used today. what about the Abassad empire for 500yrs, Ummayd empire for 500yrs, Ottaman empire for 400yrs.
you know who invented chemistry, algebra, the number zero, astronomy, trenches, toothpaste, soap, perfume, coffee, and many of the things you use today?
you think its your masters? I don't blame you again, because your history started with the British.
I am having troubles with your version of history:

The Islamic "Caliphate" was a series of dynastic struggles, not a continuous administration.


I let Gurey and other fellow Muslims here to answer this false claim you made. Simple question if I may add: How are the Muslims were able to create the great Caliphate from China to Central Europe to Africa if the administrations were not continuous?
The end of the Roman Empire is usually considered to be the sack of Rome by the Goths, before the birth of Mohammed; it didn't exist in Islamic times.

The Byzantine Empire was defeated by the Latin Fourth Crusade; the Ottoman's just picked up the pieces.
Another false claim you made. The Byzantine empire, which was the Eastern Roman Empire was around during Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him). Prophet Muhammad (pbbuh) has sent ambassadors to Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire); Chosroes II (Emperor of Persian Empire); Negus, King of Abyssinia; Muqawqis, Ruler of Egypt; Harith Gassani, Governor of Syria; and al-Mundhir bin Sawa, Ruler of Bahrain. The wording of the Prophet’s letters was similar. The text of the letter sent to Heraclius was as follows:


“In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This letter is from Muhammad the slave of Allah and his Apostle to Heraclius, the ruler of the Byzantines. Peace be upon him who follows the right path. Furthermore, I invite you to Islam and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your subjects. And I recite to you Allah's statement:



“O People of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah). (Qur’an: Surah 3, Ayah 64).”

You can read more here: http://iqra.net/Hadith/international.php

Ok let me ask you this question: Are you gonna deny that Heraclius was not the rule of the Byzantine Empire?

Islamic scholars transmitted Greek scientific knowledge from the 4-6th centuries B.C; They borrowed extensively from both Middle Eastern and Eastern sources; but translation and use is not invention. Arabic numerals, yes; but the"zero" most likely comes from India.
First, all historians agreed that Muslims have advanced scientific knowledge and the period of the Caliphate is known as today as the period of the Muslim Renaissance. Secondly, "zero" was invented in Iraq, and it is not the last 10 years we see westerners denying it.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

Ironm@n,

I am having trouble here because I agree with you on the subject of the Crusades and Crusaders, and I hope that Meru doesn't realize what it really was he is trying to emulate. They were a sad and laughable lot, often worked at cross-purposes, often with nasty and disastrous consequences. The Wiki article is short and to the point.

You, on the other hand, are overplaying the "Muslim armies" bit. I will not pretend to be the expert here. Consult Gurey25 for the details. Let us just say that the "caliphate" was not monolithic, and that it was a good thing for the Muslims that invading armies often converted.

I stand by the historic analysis in my previous post. Perhaps you are the one who should be doing the research?

Udun,

Yes, the Eastern Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire. It no longer had a Roman or European base. Indeed, the remains of the Western Empire became one of it's chief enemies. When you say "Roman Empire", you should be talking about the unified empire before the split, or "Eastern" or "Western" after, or Byzantine after the Western had ceased to exist.

I don't disagree with you about the advances Islam made in the sciences. I will check on the "0" thing; but the last thing I read was that it came from an early culture in India.

Grant
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

Udun,

the actual number zero (0) was first used in India circa the 9th century BCE. The concept of zero was known earlier (arguably as far back as the Babylonians), but it was not used in calculations and not treated as a true number.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_did_zer ... z1Tu34GNIy


In terms of this discussion, the point to be made is that the Babylonians were not Islamic.

What surprised me was that zero (Arabic=sifer) did not reach the Muslim countries until the eighth century. http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... gin-of-zer

Grant
Last edited by Grant on Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by gurey25 »

Welcome back grant, good to see you..

Grant is right , the administrations were not continuous , the greatest extent of the khalifate was during the rule of bani Ummaya and this lasted around 120 years.
The abbasids took another 200 years to lose millitary supremacy, and they did not rule much at all after that..
The fatamids, the Ghazanvids in eastern Iran and ofcourse the bani ummaya in andalus did not take their orders from them.

and for a while the abbasids were actually hostages of a family of Iranian ex royalty that used to be zoroastrians , then converted to Buddhism and then Shia islam.
They ran Baghdad and western Iran + Iraq ..

Grant is wrong however about the nature of the transmition of science and technology to Europe.
The Muslims invented and discovered allot, and infact corrected allot of greek theories like Ptolomies.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by Grant »

Thanks, Gurey,

I will take specifics on the transmission. I don't personally have evidence , but I suspect there were also Jews involved in this.
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Re: When will we recapture Jerusalem?

Post by gurey25 »

Grant it was an Muslim civilization, not arab, infact the majority of scholars where Persian and not arab,
there were jews as well, and in the early stages christians dominated the bait al xikma (house of wisdom) in Baghdad.
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