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clear case of kaafirization.

progressive is code for kaafir.


very easy to spot..

even for a regular muslim who is anti-salafi like me..

Sounds like a manifesto written by Irshad Manji!

Melo,
Utopia aside, what we have today is a world that is run through man made laws. As a muslim I have no problem in accepting these laws even if they are contradictory to my faith.

Europe (at least the northern part) have said NO to faith based laws from the day when Martin Luther nailed his thesis; they will not change their laws because some muslims live in their countries. If they create untolerant laws, muslims will be the first to be targeted; thus, my friend religious tolerance protects muslims.

And I guess you and I are enjoying the fruits of liberal laws.

I havent read it yet and I'll get back to to it later cos I have to go..

Though I find it amusing that the word Kaafir is thrown about so easily. Who the hell are you to denounce someone else's religion?

Lamgoodle wrote:Melo,
Utopia aside, what we have today is a world that is run through man made laws. As a muslim I have no problem in accepting these laws even if they are contradictory to my faith.

Europe (at least the northern part) have said NO to faith based laws from the day when Martin Luther nailed his thesis; they will not change their laws because some muslims live in their countries. If they create untolerant laws, muslims will be the first to be targeted; thus, my friend religious tolerance protects muslims.

And I guess you and I are enjoying the fruits of liberal laws.

Precisely.

Beenaale_No1 wrote:

Lamgoodle wrote:Melo,
Utopia aside, what we have today is a world that is run through man made laws. As a muslim I have no problem in accepting these laws even if they are contradictory to my faith.

Europe (at least the northern part) have said NO to faith based laws from the day when Martin Luther nailed his thesis; they will not change their laws because some muslims live in their countries. If they create untolerant laws, muslims will be the first to be targeted; thus, my friend religious tolerance protects muslims.

And I guess you and I are enjoying the fruits of liberal laws.

Precisely.

That's something they can't comprehend!

BlackVelvet wrote:Oh please let's not pretend. This is going far and beyond the human rights act. What you are saying is you want Islam to be Holland and then some. If a Muslim in the west decides to be gay or transgender or abort a baby then go for it and it's between you and your Lord but then saying that Islam as a religion and we as Muslims should accept, promote through accepting and failing to condemn, practising homosexuality, crossdressing, abortion etc is stepping too far.

A sin is a sin, if you are Muslim live by the rules of Islam repent when you sin but do go around trying to change it into something else.

A balanced approach would be to for example, to allow people of different faiths to live peacefully amongst Muslims in a Muslim country but to accept blasphemous, derogatory or insulting texts to be published is going too far, intellectual debates and discussions aside. Outlawing forced marriage and promoting the benefits of family planning is wonderful, making abortion legal is a step too far, health reasons aside. Trying to find ways of helping homosexuals deal with their issues instead of rushing to harsh punishment is balanced, making homosexuality an acceptable lifestyle in Islam is too much, no exceptions.

You see we have a religion already. You can't rewrite it to fit in with how society is today. If Allah said that he has perfected Islam for us then the least we can do is learn about it and the context of what it teaches. Instead there seems to be this acquired prejudiced notion of Western values being more progressive and we as Muslims have started to believe this political bullcrap.

Couldn't agree more.

Lamgoodle wrote:Melo,
Utopia aside, what we have today is a world that is run through man made laws. As a muslim I have no problem in accepting these laws even if they are contradictory to my faith.

Europe (at least the northern part) have said NO to faith based laws from the day when Martin Luther nailed his thesis; they will not change their laws because some muslims live in their countries. If they create untolerant laws, muslims will be the first to be targeted; thus, my friend religious tolerance protects muslims.

And I guess you and I are enjoying the fruits of liberal laws.

That seems to be the main thing these people don't understand.

gurey25 wrote:clear case of kaafirization.

progressive is code for kaafir.


very easy to spot..

even for a regular muslim who is anti-salafi like me..

BlackVelvet wrote:Oh please let's not pretend. This is going far and beyond the human rights act. What you are saying is you want Islam to be Holland and then some. If a Muslim in the west decides to be gay or transgender or abort a baby then go for it and it's between you and your Lord but then saying that Islam as a religion and we as Muslims should accept, promote through accepting and failing to condemn, practising homosexuality, crossdressing, abortion etc is stepping too far.

A sin is a sin, if you are Muslim live by the rules of Islam repent when you sin but do go around trying to change it into something else.

A balanced approach would be to for example, to allow people of different faiths to live peacefully amongst Muslims in a Muslim country but to accept blasphemous, derogatory or insulting texts to be published is going too far, intellectual debates and discussions aside. Outlawing forced marriage and promoting the benefits of family planning is wonderful, making abortion legal is a step too far, health reasons aside. Trying to find ways of helping homosexuals deal with their issues instead of rushing to harsh punishment is balanced, making homosexuality an acceptable lifestyle in Islam is too much, no exceptions.

You see we have a religion already. You can't rewrite it to fit in with how society is today. If Allah said that he has perfected Islam for us then the least we can do is learn about it and the context of what it teaches. Instead there seems to be this acquired prejudiced notion of Western values being more progressive and we as Muslims have started to believe this political bullcrap.

Trying to bend Islam to fit with these ''western values'' instead of the other way,is ridiculous. According to Islam ,you respect the law of the country you live in but you dont go out of your way to change the laws of the deen.

Its not a question of law, but more moral values.
I don`t have a problem with homosexuals here in the west, but I totally reject their abominable practises and the infiltration of gay lifestyle teachings into kids schools.

What makes you think "the west" is tolerant of Muslims? By my reckoning they`ve slaughtered or instigated the slaughter of millions of Muslims.
Moreover, I`m sure any US forumers could confirm Muslims in the US are being killed, jailed and oppressed for practising their religion.

BlackVelvet wrote:Oh please let's not pretend. This is going far and beyond the human rights act. What you are saying is you want Islam to be Holland and then some. If a Muslim in the west decides to be gay or transgender or abort a baby then go for it and it's between you and your Lord but then saying that Islam as a religion and we as Muslims should accept, promote through accepting and failing to condemn, practising homosexuality, crossdressing, abortion etc is stepping too far.

A sin is a sin, if you are Muslim live by the rules of Islam repent when you sin but do go around trying to change it into something else.

A balanced approach would be to for example, to allow people of different faiths to live peacefully amongst Muslims in a Muslim country but to accept blasphemous, derogatory or insulting texts to be published is going too far, intellectual debates and discussions aside. Outlawing forced marriage and promoting the benefits of family planning is wonderful, making abortion legal is a step too far, health reasons aside. Trying to find ways of helping homosexuals deal with their issues instead of rushing to harsh punishment is balanced, making homosexuality an acceptable lifestyle in Islam is too much, no exceptions.

You see we have a religion already. You can't rewrite it to fit in with how society is today. If Allah said that he has perfected Islam for us then the least we can do is learn about it and the context of what it teaches. Instead there seems to be this acquired prejudiced notion of Western values being more progressive and we as Muslims have started to believe this political bullcrap.

well said,

BlackVelvet wrote:Oh please let's not pretend. This is going far and beyond the human rights act. What you are saying is you want Islam to be Holland and then some. If a Muslim in the west decides to be gay or transgender or abort a baby then go for it and it's between you and your Lord but then saying that Islam as a religion and we as Muslims should accept, promote through accepting and failing to condemn, practising homosexuality, crossdressing, abortion etc is stepping too far.

A sin is a sin, if you are Muslim live by the rules of Islam repent when you sin but do go around trying to change it into something else.

A balanced approach would be to for example, to allow people of different faiths to live peacefully amongst Muslims in a Muslim country but to accept blasphemous, derogatory or insulting texts to be published is going too far, intellectual debates and discussions aside. Outlawing forced marriage and promoting the benefits of family planning is wonderful, making abortion legal is a step too far, health reasons aside. Trying to find ways of helping homosexuals deal with their issues instead of rushing to harsh punishment is balanced, making homosexuality an acceptable lifestyle in Islam is too much, no exceptions.

You see we have a religion already. You can't rewrite it to fit in with how society is today. If Allah said that he has perfected Islam for us then the least we can do is learn about it and the context of what it teaches. Instead there seems to be this acquired prejudiced notion of Western values being more progressive and we as Muslims have started to believe this political bullcrap.

As religions grow older, they undoubtedly evolve and become more humanitarian. In the past it may have been acceptable to persecute and malign homosexuals, but that is going to stop in the 21st century. As more research is done into their sexuality, it is becoming increasingly more clear that it is largely of genetic origin. Homosexuality has even been observed in the animal kingdom, and the qu’ran itself says that animals do not have free will, thus showing that homosexuals do not choose to become that way but are born that way. It’s not something you can correct, as you insinuated. The statement I posted said nothing about promoting homosexuality, but did say that there is nothing inherently anti Islamic about granting homosexuals their full and unhindered rights. Nevertheless I am not surprised that some folks on this forum would fake outrage over this non-issue to score some cheap points by appealing to the persuasive prejudice against that group.

Furthermore you must accept that people have different views on matters of faith, and should be free to express themselves so long as they do it peacefully. There is no compulsion in religion, and some choose to practice a religion other than Islam or have no religion whatsoever. Freedom of speech and liberty of conscious is a fundamental human right. If someone wishes to criticize Islam, while I may not agree with their ideas I certainly agree that they have a right to freely express themselves. You discredit the erroneous ideas of other people, you don’t try to eliminate them because that will inevitably result in failure. Take for example the cartoon that was drawn of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in Denmark. What did the riots in Pakistan and Afghan achieve? They simply gave notoriety to the cartoonist and saw to it that those very cartoons became published all throughout the world.

The message of Islam is eternal and perfect, and obviously everyone who considers themselves Muslims agrees with this. But the message of Islam is one that can be interpreted many different ways, as evidenced by the great diversity of religious thought within Islam itself. The goal isn’t to rewrite nor undermine Islam, but to revitalize discourse on Islamic theology as has been done before in a contemporary context. Obviously there will be resistance from obscurantist and those with a backward mentality, but that is to be expected and will in time be overcome.

union lakum dinakum waliya deen, end of story, you stick to what ever light version of islam you want we stick to following the foot steps of the sunna and the prophet, marka nac nacda dadka kala dultag,:arrow: