Debating tribalism; seriously.

[BlackVelvet]

Waryaa has a point. Also the more shared prosperity there is in a community the less qabiil becomes a factor. Like Sahan said qabiil is an insurance policy. So if there is equal development all over Somalia, and not concentrated on certain points, and socio-politically we reach an age of maturity then qabiil will slowly disappear because it will cease to be of use.

[AhlulbaytSoldier]

Qabiil is part of our muslim identity.
We should embrace it


First Islam then Clan and last Nationalism.

[greenday]

There is no solution. It can't be separated from the political realm unless Somalis dominant way of life changes drastically.

Qabiil gets less and less as u move to the South and the reason was because of the socio economic and even today's Somalia if ppl's social security is covered their qabiil tendency decreases/

So i believe Qabiil/qabyaalad can be cured by creating prosperity because now we use qabiil as insurance but we can get our living from some where else we will try to be come individual.


As Abdullahi Suldan Timacade pointed out Qabiil/qabyalaaad has no value to our lives as individual and as community.

When there is no fear of "them" and money is no worry even the qaran aspect of qabiil will be forgotten There will be a time when people vote for the president to will lower their taxes and not the man from their qabiil, people will be bound by economical interest and not qabiil, give it 10 years

[SahanGalbeed]

Waryaa has a point. Also the more shared prosperity there is in a community the less qabiil becomes a factor. Like Sahan said qabiil is an insurance policy. So if there is equal development all over Somalia, and not concentrated on certain points, and socio-politically we reach an age of maturity then qabiil will slowly disappear because it will cease to be of use.

He who thinks Qabil is a mechanism to further his /their tribal interest will massacre whomever he deems a threat .
He who thinks Qabil is an insurance policy will take into account the almost inevitable negative outcome a possible military retaliation will bring .
In other words for us , it is used to MINIMIZE the losses , for others to MAXIMIZE their profit , 2 fundamentally opposed views .

I am afraid we don't even have the same perpesctive as the Eaglehawk , Voltage of this world .

[Voltage]

Please strop trying to personalize the discussion. I know you want to goad me into a troll argument but the topic question is general and so far I am impressed with the responses.

[Cinque Mtume]

Qabiil will only be less when the quality of life and level of education of Somalis in general drastically improves.

If that happens, people won't care that the president and the prime minister and over half of the cabinet are all MJ and inshallah I hope we reach that stage sooner rather than later.

[Voltage]

Cinque, I know you are capable of much greater thought sxb.

[BlackVelvet]

Qabiil will only be less when the quality of life and level of education of Somalis in general drastically improves.

If that happens, people won't care that the president and the prime minister and over half of the cabinet are all MJ and inshallah I hope we reach that stage sooner rather than later.

This is the problem. And Cinque's words are a reflection of politics in Somalia. When some people think like this how can qabiil ever be positive and how can Somalia ever move forward?

[qoraxeey]

Qabiil will only be less when the quality of life and level of education of Somalis in general drastically improves.

If that happens, people won't care that the president and the prime minister and over half of the cabinet are all MJ and inshallah I hope we reach that stage sooner rather than later.

joker

[Shirib]

yes, and I think if you were trying to show qabiil with the istun you used a terrible example.

Istun is not necessarily my point. You just told me being Geledi is an important cultural artifact for both you and your family. You are aware of your tribe and recognize its position in your life. It totally destroys your premise to not recognize tribe. Do you not realize that?

So now that you have realized your recognition of tribe in the life and world of a Somali, how do you prevent it from being used as a vehicle for political power and ill use (aka qabyaalad) is the point.

Care for the well being of your neighbor regardless of who he maybe rather than some guy who u happen to share a clan with.

I actually have a problem with the whole premise of having a sense of loyalty or duty to your qabiil or members of your qabiil. If a person in every day matters is willing to give favors or what not to a person who is from his clan that he wouldn't do for a shisheeyi, I don't know how you would stop that from happening politically, or institutionally. If it's allowed in personal dealings then it will appear institutionally, you can't stop the latter without stopping the former.

In order to get rid of qabyaalad we have to get rid of the mentality of what qabiil is first.

[Cinque Mtume]

Cinque, I know you are capable of much greater thought sxb.

Come on bro, you know I was just joking.

I meant the first part though. Qabiil is the Somali's social network, welfare state and primary source of identity. All of them can be replaced with the help of nationwide institutions with enough effort and resources.

But I'm pessimistic. Don't underestimate the toxicity of the late 80s and early to mid 90s. There's a lot of bad blood still.

[Estarix]

The problem lies with clan, in the case of Somalia clan is so deep rooted in all parts of society and people's conciousness that it would be nearly impossible to maintained while espousing a clan free ideology, i think the only way is to eradicate it alltogether.

A future Somali state formation must be engineered so that the leadership is dominated by politicans that hail from a minority or a non-samaale clan such as D&M or preferably a Bantu. The leadership must then instutionalise a campaign that suppresses and denigrates clan and all related culture in the country. local clan leaders such as suldaans must have their positions of power removed so that they become essentially a non-figure. There needs to also be mass urbanisation of the population, the campaign must spread through the education system, media, politics, everywhere in society.

[SahanGalbeed]

The problem lies with clan, in the case of Somalia clan is so deep rooted in all parts of society and people's conciousness that it would be nearly impossible to maintained while espousing a clan free ideology, i think the only way is to eradicate it alltogether.

A future Somali state formation must be engineered so that the leadership is dominated by politicans that hail from a minority or a non-samaale clan such as D&M or preferably a Bantu. The leadership must then instutionalise a campaign that suppresses and denigrates clan and all related culture in the country. local clan leaders such as suldaans must have their positions of power removed so that they become essentially a non-figure. There needs to also be mass urbanisation of the population, the campaign must spread through the education system, media, politics, everywhere in society.

And we shall , by Almight Allah wage war against you once again
Unfortunately the preferable solution would be to have the Daarood form a cohesive/inclusive / efficient political block and the Hawiye the same . Geographically speaking I don't think it is feasible .
So then what other route can we go ?
In the Somali context political soundness or validity comes with tribal cohesion .
If it weren't for outside influenced elements , we've shown we know how to deal with our non Isaaq neighbours in Somaliland . For starters I would like to see a majeerten /habar gidir project and a southern daarood/ southern hawiye or other tribe proposal , plan . Work with your neighbour first , without worrying about anything else .

[Estarix]

Sahan

I will kill a lot of people.

Edit:

Unfortunately the preferable solution would be to have the Daarood form a cohesive/inclusive / efficient political block and the Hawiye the same . Geographically speaking I don't think it is feasible .

Thats a recipe for disaster mate, we might have a repeat of history one constituency hijacking, dominating and holding onto power.

So then what other route can we go ?

In the Somali context political soundness or validity comes with tribal cohesion .
If it weren't for outside influenced elements , we've shown we know how to deal with our non Isaaq neighbours in Somaliland . For starters I would like to see a majeerten /habar gidir project and a southern daarood/ southern hawiye or other tribe proposal , plan

This is an ideal route and simple route, on a democratic level its not possible as any figure can lead a nation so any stabillity on a clan level will be in his control - which quite an unreliable move.
Also if such as an act (s.darood hawiye) was engineered then how long can tribal peace be maintained, knowing Somali history grievances and anger can spill over from anywhere. Somalis also operate on a sub-sub clan level - so having a situation where two tribes dominate the scene can marginalise other clans and anger can easily arise, typical clan sentiments can re-form. And when its their turn to lead it can create further problems.
We dont want. We want a state where a Somali is only viewed as a Somali and his actions judged by his politics.

[SahanGalbeed]

Sahan

I will kill a lot of people.

You'd be lost , overwhelmed very quic,kly
A man with no sense of where he's from nor going is what you are my friend