Ayuuto/hagbad

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Tuushi
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Tuushi »

DafIyoMiriq wrote:I am good Alhamdulilah..
I understand what u saying, but I would rather not take chances bro, if i deposit $100 in a bank I just want to get my $100 back no extras,
I also look for a zero APR if I need to take a loan whether i am buying a car or appliance etc, and pay it in full before the interest kicks in. I have seen some wadads who argue for or against this issue. Personally when I hear the word interest i run the other way :lol:
Good for u.few extra cents on ur saving are not ur aqira. :up:

There is difference in fearing implied riba and signing for one u know for sure.


Lama. I would like to know how u came to the conclusion that xawaalad are riba based businesses.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Alphanumeric »

abdi.ismail wrote:^^^ Isn't hagbad a somali invented method of loaning, how did it reach Brazil? Don't tell me we got that from the Arabs too. :down:
How do you know that it was invented by Somalis? Seems like any community could come up with it.
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Cunaaye25
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Cunaaye25 »

zulaika wrote:i cleared my student load with hegbad...back in the day.

many thanks to my hooyo and her circle of friend from dugsi quraan. :up: :up:

maskiin waan ka xumahay.......... you fallen for the scam :(



You need a basic form of affidavit with two witnesses and your national insurance number to get the treasury to pay off your debt at the bottom of the letter you create a Cheque out in a slightly different way from the normal way.
Evidence to proof my point.........click the link below

Here is the magic page on HMRC wEBSITE - PROOF that its lawfull
I’ve the template but it’s to late you have already paid them with your :( hard earned promissory of notes ........
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ihtmanual/ihtm19120.htm
Lamagoodle
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Lamagoodle »

Gurey25, My knowledge of the subject is solid and surely outshines that of many who visit these boards. If you want to engage in some emotional rants or cool aid (Maxaa la yiri gobbledygookism) that is fine but never try to play the connoisseur. You have no idea of how financial systems work or the differences between usury and interest rates. You are certainly the kind that would have said Xawala is Xaaram had it not been somalis running it. The kind that want to poke their noises on everything without due astuteness. This is not a subject of Waan-daadshe nation.


Tuushe, if you ask Islamic theologians (and I don’t mean Somali wadaads in general) then surely you will understand that it is. Honestly speaking I don’t care whether it is or not. Many somalis due to language intricacies equate interest rates with usury which is not necessary not the same. The conventional wisdom among somalis is that everything that somalis do is xalaal.

Abdi Ismacil, saving schemes such as Hagbad/ayuuto/shalongo are practised in all societies.
Tuushi
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Tuushi »

Lama. I was not attacking ur suggestion.Sorry if it came out like that.

I wanted to hear what u know/heard to reach that conclusion.Nothing more.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Lamagoodle »

Tuushi wrote:Lama. I was not attacking ur suggestion.Sorry if it came out like that.

I wanted to hear what u know/heard to reach that conclusion.Nothing more.
I am not offended Tuushi! My point is that – there is no difference between Xawaala and banks in the west. Xawaalas main business domain is money transfer where they charge a few which often is based on a predetermined percentage. Basically, if you are sending 100 dollars to your mom and 125 to your dad in the same town you will be charged different amounts. I am not that good at Islamic juripudence but that is a borderline ribba/ usury issue. So, for the somali wadaads who speak about these issues it is better for them to start with xawalaah.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Tuushi »

Lamgoodle wrote:
Tuushi wrote:Lama. I was not attacking ur suggestion.Sorry if it came out like that.

I wanted to hear what u know/heard to reach that conclusion.Nothing more.
I am not offended Tuushi! My point is that – there is no difference between Xawaala and banks in the west. Xawaalas main business domain is money transfer where they charge a few which often is based on a predetermined percentage. Basically, if you are sending 100 dollars to your mom and 125 to your dad in the same town you will be charged different amounts. I am not that good at Islamic juripudence but that is a borderline ribba/ usury issue. So, for the somali wadaads who speak about these issues it is better for them to start with xawalaah.

The service charge?

They are in business to make money.

Fair enough. :up:
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Hyperactive »

lama, riba in quran/islam and service charge are different things.

riba simply in shar3 means: borrowing money and adding charge for time being! cause the work or johd you can charge but not by time in islam.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Lamagoodle »

Tuushi, you see inadeer, many somalis who speak about interest rate/ribba have no knowledge about the functioning of the global financial system. In addition, there is no sophistication in their analysis. A look at any history book on usury (even from a theological viewpoint) will show that the Xawaalah is the nearest you come to it. They charge interest rates (some idiots will call it a fee) that is almost 3 times of the current rate. Interest rates in real money value can be called a fee.

Hyper, true but it is not as simple as that. If your defination is correct then how comes somalis call bank loans, morgages etc RIBA when the interest rate is 2-5%?

, Many businesses that involve only money exchanges such as the xaawalah are borderline issues;

"Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Al-Baqarah 2:275)
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Hyperactive »

lama is not as easy as you copied and pasted. that is why there is majma3 islamic scholars put it that based in islamic banks. so yeah riba is not faida. people said faida is same as riba. i understand even in islamic banks chrge you more if you borrow but they dont charge percentage based of time. and believe me they make money as much riba based banks if not more. for consumer is same to them. in the end you pay more than what you borrowed but wa inad go around the system.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Alphanumeric »

One of the most interesting threads I've read in a while. Nice one, Lama. :up:

Only have a few questions: Are you also arguing that ayuuto/hagbad/shalango are interest-based exchanges? If so, how is that? I understand the argument being made on xawaalads, as per 'service fees', but this one escapes me.
hyperactive wrote:lama is not as easy as you copied and pasted. that is why there is majma3 islamic scholars put it that based in islamic banks. so yeah riba is not faida. people said faida is same as riba. i understand even in islamic banks chrge you more if you borrow but they dont charge percentage based of time. and believe me they make money as much riba based banks if not more. for consumer is same to them. in the end you pay more than what you borrowed but wa inad go around the system.
This I've never understood. It's halaal, even if you're paying much more than you should, because time is not involved. How is that any different than a loan between two people where x provides y with $100, but y returns $150 in agreement to the contract, regardless of time? The average Muslim would look at this and be convinced it is riba.

In Canada we have 'halaal mortgages', but people aren't convinced lol. They realize you are still paying more in the end, sometimes much more than you should.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Executive »

gurey25 wrote:Lamagodle still beating that dead horse i see.
i find your belief in xawalad as an interest bearing activity strange and illogical.
When you send $100 dollars to your loved one through Dahabshiil, Dahabshiil does not provide that $100 as a loan, they facilitate the service of tranfering that $100 to a particular person/location, for a fee.

I think the difference is obvious to most people.
i remember using the analogy of DHL/Fedex lat time and this did not dissaude you from your strange belief.
DHL provides a service of moving my parcel to the location i want for a fee, exactly the same as what Dahabshiil does with your money the difference is that money is not something tangible and it eases the distribution.

As far as i know when i want to send an Iphone or Ipad i bought as gift for someone and want to send it to them, DHL does not purchase the Iphone and lend it to me on credit and also provide an additional service of transporting it.
That would be a kool sidebusiness for DHL and profitable for them if they were given permission.
and i am sure Dahabshiil does not yet provide credit and loans to people as part of their regular business of xawala.

:up:
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Executive »

Alphanumeric wrote:
This I've never understood. It's halaal, even if you're paying much more than you should, because time is not involved. How is that any different than a loan between two people where x provides y with $100, but y returns $150 in agreement to the contract, regardless of time? The average Muslim would look at this and be convinced it is riba.

In Canada we have 'halaal mortgages', but people aren't convinced lol. They realize you are still paying more in the end, sometimes much more than you should.

You are right....You have scholars on Shariah boards that will sign off anything as Sharia complaint for a $1 million annual salary :lol: But most people regard it as riba.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Lamagoodle »

hyperactive wrote:lama is not as easy as you copied and pasted. that is why there is majma3 islamic scholars put it that based in islamic banks. so yeah riba is not faida. people said faida is same as riba. i understand even in islamic banks chrge you more if you borrow but they dont charge percentage based of time. and believe me they make money as much riba based banks if not more. for consumer is same to them. in the end you pay more than what you borrowed but wa inad go around the system.
There is nothing called islamic banks today Hyper. Only those who do not understand financial systems think there is something called islamic banks. if you look closely, you will not that banks are involved in a web of relationships with other banks and institutions. Wall street investment banks are clients of so called islamic banks. This issue has been discussed alot in the literature and the facts all point to; some banks call themselves islamic banks for marketing reasons.

True, my knowledge of the quran is limited. But, my knowledge of the field of finance is good.

Alpha, hi cousin. I am not saying that ayuuto is interest rate based. However, they are losers when you put it in the context of financial services. The losers are those who recieve their savings in the last cycle because of opportunity costs (not investing their money in other schemes).

Let me give you an example;
Xalima is engaged in an ayuuto with 15 other women. She decides to be the last one i.e. she lends her money for 15 months without interest rates. What will happen if there is a currency depreciation? inflation? she would have been covered against these had she put her money in a savings account with an interest rate.

That sounds very abstract and is perhaps offset by the advantages of ayuuto which is the thesis of this thread.


Executive; no need to give thumbs up. You are the guy who claimed to have taken graduate courses in financial economics only to show that your knowledge of basic economics was zero.
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Re: Ayuuto/hagbad

Post by Executive »

Lamgoodle wrote:
Executive; no need to give thumbs up. You are the guy who claimed to have taken graduate courses in financial economics only to show that your knowledge of basic economics was zero.

Mr I-Know-It-All you don't really have much to come with, an explained of your bizarre claim would have helped, but you failed. I will give you another chance. How do you equate the commission charge for transferring money to being an "interest rate".
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