Who dares to call them kafirs? Who!?

[ZubeirAwal]

indeed there is no middle man, but in a sense the nabi is closer to allah now in this moment and that the nabi straight from his qabri reads our deeds and says alhamdulilah if he reads a good deed, and makes istighfar if he reads a bad deed


Hutu, according you ignorant statement bilal the great friend and sahaba of the prophet is a mushrik (Na3uudubilah), because the drought was severe after the life of the prophet and bilal came to the qabri and said 'Ya rasuulalah '. i dare you ya jahil to repeat your statement and to swear to allah that you feel no regret nor hesitance of your profound ignorant statement , because your about to read the very people who lived at the time of the prophet , asking him infront of his qabri , to do so and so.

i almost forget, you are calling almost the whole ummah mushriks because they say ya nabi salam calayka, ya rasuulalah calayka, , salawatulla calayka, what you don't understand is the rank and the importance of this man (Muhammad SAW), that without him you , me and everyone who is a muslim , would've been kuffars destined for the nar, and it is due to his birth, mercy, and arrival , that he was chosen by allah , even before the adam' (AS) has come alive, to be the most important creation and would speak the most powerful words in all of human history , anc instead of showing some adab, you have the audacity to say proudly 'he's dead', ya3ni hes no more, no use etc.. and then you go on to attack those who weep to see his face, and label them mushris, as if you were told that you have jannah reserved, that you spend your time judging people, shame.

It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar’s treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the time of `Umar (his khilafah), whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,” after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: “Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” The man went and told `Umar. The latter said: “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”"



Scholars’ understanding of this narration

1. Hafidh Ibn Hajar al Asqalani -rahimahu Allah- in his books “Fath al Bari” (vol 3 pg. 441):
He sites it in chapter “The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought,” in the chapter heading section, in which he quotes ahadith that have relevance to the chapter heading, and that connect it with hadiths that come under that chapter.
Amongst those narrations he mentions the narration of Malik al Dar, and he only quotes part of the narration, he stops at “go to Umar”. He used this as evidence that people ask the imam to do istisqa (ask for rain) for them in times of drought.
He didn’t mention the rest of the hadith because it has nothing to do with the chapter heading, he only quoted what he believed fits the chapters title, for he says at the end of the section, after mentioning this narration:

“From all of this appears the relevance of the chapter heading to the origin of this story“
so, al Hafidh Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah understood from this hadith that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was directing the man to go ask the Imam, during that time (Umar radiyallahu anhu), to do istisqa’ for them.



2. Hafidh Ibn Kathir -rahimahu Allah-:

He sites it in his book “al Bidayah wan Nihaya ” (vol7 pg.104 ),in which he mentions some narrations, right before he mentions Malik ad Dar’s narration, which explain the meaning of the narration.
wallahi if the ijma3a of ibn kathir, shafici and all the greats were resurrected before our eyes they will stand against this gaalo-raac sect that has been of no benefit to the muslims , only brought division and the cutting of kin ties, these are the signs of it being a sect of evil.

[sahal80]

Shirk billah means to worship other beside him.
There is al tawasul bijaah waliy. Its not al shirk bilah.
You can say bijaah mohammed habiibak(for the sake of your beloved mohammed)bijah alwaliya...
Madad yaa fulaan is a shirk but doesn't make them kufaar and they are some ignorent sufiyah not the majority of them or the modern ones or ahlu tasawuf.

[Shirib]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

[sahal80]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

wtf your talking about? She can't hear you!
All you can do is asking allah some thing for her jaah.

[Shirib]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

wtf your talking about? She can't hear you!
All you can do is asking allah some thing for her jaah.

People here are talking about asking dead people to ask Allah for intercession on your behalf.

[ZubeirAwal]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

im saying if you guys are making a statement that if you ask the prophet to ask allah, and ofcourse asking of your own choice, are you saying the asker is a mushrik and is committing shirk? because thats a serious mistake , you are accusing the asxaab being deviants, do you not know the best of man is the nabi SAW , the prophets, the asxaab, in that order, do realise that they were men who are far more better then your aal sheikh and your albaanis.
and do realise that sufis follow them and not the 20th century doctrine , yes there are misguided sufis , but to generalise all sufis is a foolish act.

[Shirib]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

im saying if you guys are making a statement that if you ask the prophet to ask allah, and ofcourse asking of your own choice, are you saying the asker is a mushrik and is committing shirk? because thats a serious mistake , you are accusing the asxaab being deviants, do you not know the best of man is the nabi SAW , the prophets, the asxaab, in that order, do realise that they were men who are far more better then your aal sheikh and your albaanis.
and do realise that sufis follow them and not the 20th century doctrine , yes there are misguided sufis , but to generalise all sufis is a foolish act.

I said that you can't paint all suufi's in the same brush in my first post.

I also said that some sufi's took place in things that consisted of shirk which we were discussing. See PO's exchange. Now can you answer my question above.

[ZubeirAwal]

your question is an obvious no, must you ask ridiculous things in order to justify your points?, traditional tassawuf says it is NOT xaram to ask the prophet to ask allah, whereas the salafis regard it as shirk , thats where the difference comes in , obviously according to the accounts of the great asxabi, asking for intercession throug xabiiballah is not shirk , otherwise those making such statements should know they've made takfiir on sayyidi bilal (RA).

[sahal80]

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

btw that's a serious question

im saying if you guys are making a statement that if you ask the prophet to ask allah, and ofcourse asking of your own choice, are you saying the asker is a mushrik and is committing shirk? because thats a serious mistake , you are accusing the asxaab being deviants, do you not know the best of man is the nabi SAW , the prophets, the asxaab, in that order, do realise that they were men who are far more better then your aal sheikh and your albaanis.
and do realise that sufis follow them and not the 20th century doctrine , yes there are misguided sufis , but to generalise all sufis is a foolish act.

do you. Have a proof that you can directly ask the prophet a help or contacting allah on your behave?
What is agreed upon is al tawasul bejaah al nabi, the prophet himself use to tawasul bejaah camihi al shahid cabaas but its a misguiding act to ask the prophet a help. You should salaat calayhi and that means praying for him not him praying for you. The prophet is like any other human he can't hear.

[Shirib]

your question is an obvious no, must you ask ridiculous things in order to justify your points?, traditional tassawuf says it is NOT xaram to ask the prophet to ask allah, whereas the salafis regard it as shirk , thats where the difference comes in , obviously according to the accounts of the great asxabi, asking for intercession throug xabiiballah is not shirk , otherwise those making such statements should know they've made takfiir on sayyidi bilal (RA).

Abuukar, PO says that this can happen when someone is dead though, and we're not talking about RasuluAllah but rather great sheikhs or people who we consider "waliyuallah". Are you under this impression also, or do you think it's shirk, as I've said?

People used to go to Biyooleey, to the grave of Sheikh Aweys and ask him for things directly or intercedingly, such as heal my sick child, give me a son, etc. This was not ridiculous thing, it was common. Is this shirk?

[ZubeirAwal]

do not ask me , read yourself , muslims have been obsessed with shirk , how do you know these ppl in baraawe's intention is not to worship them alongside allah, but see them as a help since when you die your closer to allah than living in this material dunya.

Ibn Hajar says about the meaning of the Prophet's saying (By Allah! I am not afraid that you will worship others along with Allah after my death):


His saying: (I am not afraid that you will worship others along with Allah after my death) means "you in total or as a whole", because that has occured from some (a few), we seek refuge to Allah.

Ibn Hajar also said:

and it occured from what was mentioned in this hadith his report that: he will pave the way for them as their predecessor, and he did; and that his companions won't worship others along with Allah after him and it was that.



So this shows that the hadith doesn't mean that the whole ummah from after the Prophet's (sallahu alayhi wasallam) death until day of judgment won't do shirk. That is clear from what Ibn Hajar -rahimahu Allah - said.

[Shirib]

You didn't answer the question Abuukar.

People used to go to Biyooleey, to the grave of Sheikh Aweys and ask him for things directly or intercedingly, such as heal my sick child, give me a son, etc. This was not ridiculous thing, it was common. Is this shirk?

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

[qoraxeey]

[Leftist]

People used to go to Biyooleey, to the grave of Sheikh Aweys and ask him for things directly or intercedingly, such as heal my sick child, give me a son, etc. This was not ridiculous thing, it was common. Is this shirk?

Technically speaking, and without any context, yes, that is shirk. But, as PO pointed out, there's also the matter of perspective: The Sufis don't consider what they're doing as asking Aweys or Jaylaani for help directly instead of asking Allah. They consider it as: "O Shaykh so-and-so, given your righteousness and awliya-status, please intercede on our behalf to Ilaahay, and ask him, on our behalf, to heal my sick child and give me camels"

They don't always state it that clearly, but that's the whole niyyah/intention behind siyaaro/grave-worship. Also, as AbuukarSubeer showed, there is evidence from the Sunnah showing that (some form of) intercession is legit. So, with that context, can what they do be considered shirk/kufr?

Also, I would go easy on the shirk/kufr typecasting. There are hundreds of millions of muslims worldwide that believe in and practice saint-intercession. Call them ignorant, but don't call them mushrikeen. They need education, not judgement.

[SultanOrder]

You didn't answer the question Abuukar.

People used to go to Biyooleey, to the grave of Sheikh Aweys and ask him for things directly or intercedingly, such as heal my sick child, give me a son, etc. This was not ridiculous thing, it was common. Is this shirk?

Can I ask my dead aunt to pray for me to Allah to win my upcoming FIFA tournament?

You must consider that it is Allah to whom you seek for everything, but the way you turn to Allah can be beautified in many many many ways. For example, you can pray a couple nafl rak'as before you make a plea to Allah, you can give sadaqa as a means to please allah, you can go to the mosque, read quran, teach, do small good deeds, anything that is beloved to Allah is a means to Allah i.e. intercession. So shirib, you must remember that every good action is an intercession to Allah, and every bad action is a means to distance yourself from Allah.
Next, there is adab that comes to your interactions to Allah. Would you if you lived in a kingdom, go to the King and ask him for every trifles in a grand way? Would you go to his beloved waziirs, companions and ask him through them? Turn to Allah for everything, but also remain content with him in those small matters. But is it haram to make a dua' to win a video game? The answer is no, so using a means to get to allah to accept your dua' is not either. If you don't believe that means is haram.