The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

[abdikarim86]

Mufti, a roman philosopher during the 1st century was reported to have said the following:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

those who think they're so wise, are the most foolish

Some here believe they're highly sophisticated.

Without endorsing the crazy salafis, the ones who believe they're intelligent
and believe they have seen "past the falseness of religion" are much more
contemptible.

[gurey25]

there is a problem shirib, and it is very deep.
it starts with the word STATE.
islamic state is not what a state would be in the western sense and is really an oxymoron.
if you describe the workings and sturcture of any muslim country today even saudia to someone from even 100 years ago they will condemn them all as kufaar like the western countries.

[Lamagoodle]

Dear Shirib, for many centuries the dream of an islamic state ( a true one) has been potent. The result has been dictatorships, monarchies and warlordism.

So, let me ask you; what is the benchmark?

Gurey, you hit the nail on the head;

[Lamagoodle]

Mufti, a roman philosopher during the 1st century was reported to have said the following:

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

those who think they're so wise, are the most foolish

Some here believe they're highly sophisticated.

Without endorsing the crazy salafis, the ones who believe they're intelligent
and believe they have seen "past the falseness of religion" are much more
contemptible.

What do you mean by " comtemptible"?

[Shirib]

there is a problem shirib, and it is very deep.
it starts with the word STATE.
islamic state is not what a state would be in the western sense and is really an oxymoron.
if you describe the workings and sturcture of any muslim country today even saudia to someone from even 100 years ago they will condemn them all as kufaar like the western countries.

That's true, this whole idea of nation states, nationalism, are all strange European concepts which are foreign to Islamic history. However, I don't have enough knowledge nor have I done enough research, to know what an Islamic governed Muslim society should look like.

[abdikarim86]

there is a problem shirib, and it is very deep.
it starts with the word STATE.
islamic state is not what a state would be in the western sense and is really an oxymoron.
if you describe the workings and sturcture of any muslim country today even saudia to someone from even 100 years ago they will condemn them all as kufaar like the western countries.

How was governance like in those days, if they didn't have states?

[Shirib]

Lamagoodle,

As Muslims we've lost our histories, maybe colonialism beat us out of it or something, but it's as if we forgot that we once had a glorious history. Now we try and imitate the west in everything. I think first and foremost the most important thing is to re examine history and re examine the core values and tenants of Islam on how a people should act and govern. This would lead to revival of Islamic scholarship, Islamic people and thus a Islamic society.

[gurey25]

the westphalian state which evolved in europe under european conditions was forced on everyone else by force.
countries that had a long history of a state structure like China, Japan, Korea, Thailand adapted to it easily.
allot of people did not, arabs have still not adapted to it, apart from the Egyptians whoes experience is more like the korean etc than the rest of the arabs.
Syria is artificial, iraq even more so, nationalism was never strong for the arabs.
and there is no where more artificial than africa.

[Lamagoodle]

Shirib, if you have the time read a book called "the lever of riches" by Joel Mokyr. You will learn why islamic civilisation became the cornerstone of western civilisation and how it ran out of momentum.

Bro, we have to admit; the dominant governance system/ state is western. So far all other attempted systems have failed. This system has become institutional and encompasses everything from economics, technology, law etc.

[gurey25]

lamagoodle that means we have to outwestern the west or to re-examine our options and take a critical look at our systems to get any change.

[Shirib]

Shirib, if you have the time read a book called "the lever of riches" by Joel Mokyr. You will learn why islamic civilisation became the cornerstone of western civilisation and how it ran out of momentum.

Bro, we have to admit; the dominant governance system/ state is western. So far all other attempted systems have failed. This system has become institutional and encompasses everything from economics, technology, law etc.

Thanks I will put it on my list

[Lamagoodle]

lamagoodle that means we have to outwestern the west or to re-examine our options and take a critical look at our systems to get any change.

Gureey true; unless the following are achieved there will be no change saaxib:
a) technological superiority; innovation is the mother of neccessities.
b) education (knowledge)
c) democracy ( this is not an alien concept)
d) wealth disribution
e) freedom of thinking - this is not a liberal issue.

[gurey25]

We may have to do what other successfull countries have done.
if you challenge the west they will flatten you.
since we cannot resist them, we need to first organize a movement that is aware of its place in the world.
once you have that we can then pull of a "Maskirovka" like the japanese continue to do economically and politically.

if you look deeply at the japanese state, it is essential the same as the bureaucracy of the pre-meiji shogunate with some minor tweaks.
They then set up a facade of a democracy to appease their American masters, when in reality the bureaucracy runs everything and has continued to do so uninterruppted apart form a breif period in the 30's to 1945 when the military took over.

their economic shenanigans are far more elaborate and deceptive,
i really admire their guile.

[Lamagoodle]

Shirib, if you have the time read a book called "the lever of riches" by Joel Mokyr. You will learn why islamic civilisation became the cornerstone of western civilisation and how it ran out of momentum.

Bro, we have to admit; the dominant governance system/ state is western. So far all other attempted systems have failed. This system has become institutional and encompasses everything from economics, technology, law etc.

Thanks I will put it on my list

Shirib, I once wrote a review of the book. I will be searching on my computer and send you if I find it... if I don't find it, read it and you will learn that successive civilisations, islam, chinese, mayo etc failed as a consequence of inability to innovate and accumulate knowledge.

[gurey25]

lamagoodle that means we have to outwestern the west or to re-examine our options and take a critical look at our systems to get any change.

Gureey true; unless the following are achieved there will be no change saaxib:
a) technological superiority; innovation is the mother of neccessities.
b) education (knowledge)
c) democracy ( this is not an alien concept)
d) wealth disribution
e) freedom of thinking - this is not a liberal issue.

i agree with all excpet for democracy.
it is not really necessary and is an alien concept, unless you clarify what it means.
democracy as it is in the west is neither a universal concept or even wanted.