Egypt Court Sentences 528 Morsi Supporters To Death

[Gabre]

What the heck is "Traditional Islam"?

Theology of the three schools Ashcari, Maturidi and athari
and following one of the 4 madhabs and having a deep respect for all madhabs.

So you're saying neither the Ikhwaan movement nor Salafi movement fall under this category? What would a "Traditional Islam" government even look like then?

[gurey25]

we are talking about theology and you are talking about government.
government is an entirely different subject.

[abdikarim86]

I was more concerned about the fact that were
traditional Sunni Islam to flourish again in the future
its return would be more impeded by Ikhwaani ideas than
Salaafi, for I believe the Salaafi errors are much more obvious.

The issue with the brotherhood is not theology but ideology they were founded by men who admired the west and
used the western methods of organizing a mass movement and assimilated allot more western thinking ata a time when the rest of the muslim world was either volunteer westernizing or were forced into it,.
The majority of ikhwan are ashcari, alazhar itself is still nearly completely ashcari.

The salafis are at war with traditional caqeedas of Ashcari and maturidi and even athari.

I see, thanks for that, I was under the assumption the Ikhwaanis had rejected Ashcari Theology.
and had gone for something more "western" and "modern" obviously different from Salafi.

Corrupt/unsuitable ideology I would think is much less bad than corrupted Theology.
There is hope yet that future generations or even present day generations can snap out of
a bad ideology, much harder with corrupted theology though

It's interesting you mention the part of Athari being attacked, My local
masjid in bristol and their minions have also denounced Athari. I could not figure that
one out as i was under the impression Imaam Tahawi/Athari was the most conservative
when it came to speculative theology and the use of reasoning.

[Gabre]

I thought the whole point (afaict) of Ikhwaan is to rule/get power, same with Salafis. They're not cloistered monks, they're political movements.

[gurey25]

It's interesting you mention the part of Athari being attacked, My local
masjid in bristol and their minions have also denounced Athari. I could not figure that
one out as i was under the impression Imaam Tahawi/Athari was the most conservative
when it came to speculative theology and the use of reasoning.

Our salafi brothers claim to be hanbali madhab, imam hanbals caqeeda was essentially athari and very strict against
speculative theology.
The truth is that they are against anything that is not controlled by them.

[gurey25]

The whole point (afaict) of Ikhwaan is to rule/get power, same with Salafis. They're not cloistered monks, they're political movements.

Duh! the concept of being apolitical is alien.
Islam is by defintion political, you cannot seperate church and state, there is no state and there is no church .
there is only islam.

It is difficult to grasp this from a western prespective,.

[Gabre]

The whole point (afaict) of Ikhwaan is to rule/get power, same with Salafis. They're not cloistered monks, they're political movements.

Duh! the concept of being apolitical is alien.
Islam is by defintion political, you cannot seperate church and state, there is no state and there is no church .
there is only islam.

It is difficult to grasp this from a western prespective,.

What I'm struggling to grasp is this Traditional Islam government that is meaningfully different from Ikhwaan or Salafi-run governments.

[gurey25]

Since such a thing does not exist and has not for over hundreds of years we would need to speculate.
One thing for sure is that from a Western perspective traditional Islam would look no different than the other 2.
Opposition to the west would be more measured and controlled however.

[abdikarim86]

It's interesting you mention the part of Athari being attacked, My local
masjid in bristol and their minions have also denounced Athari. I could not figure that
one out as i was under the impression Imaam Tahawi/Athari was the most conservative
when it came to speculative theology and the use of reasoning.

Our salafi brothers claim to be hanbali madhab, imam hanbals caqeeda was essentially athari and very strict against
speculative theology.

The truth is that they are against anything that is not controlled by them.

That is a pretty good summary of that group.

Laakin if they claim to be hanbali, are there any Tradional hanbalis out there
that they can be compared against?

I have great respect for Imaam Hanbal ...for it could be argued
that he saved our religion from the Muctazila. Therefore I find it hard
to believe these people are a continuation of the school founded
by Ahmed Hanbal.

Then again they do share the dislike for all speculative theology
so maybe they are the same?

[Gabre]

Can you at least give an example from history (post Prophet's and Sahaba time) of a Traditional Islamically-run state?

[abdikarim86]

Can you at least give an example from history (post Prophet's and Sahaba time) of a Traditional Islamically-run state?

There is NO state when it came to it back in those days, This is what
Gurey means it is hard to explain it ....since we tend to look at things
from a western perspective.

[Gabre]

Can you at least give an example from history (post Prophet's and Sahaba time) of a Traditional Islamically-run state?

There is NO state when it came to it back in those days, This is what
Gurey means it is hard to explain it ....since we tend to look at things
from a western perspective.

Well this seems like just a semantics copout. Call it a state, call it "the way society functioned" or whatever, but at least give an example of when it existed (since gurey25 is saying it did at some point, somewhere).

[gurey25]

As i said no such state existed for nearly 200 years.
That leaves allot of examples.
The first and best example is Medina, The prophet scw rule of medina was the blueprint for the other khalifa's,
even the rule of Bani Ummaya and the Bani Cabbas.
all the way to the 1840's when the Ottomans started converting into a western state slowly abandoning islam.

The characteristics was the non-existance of banking or interest, the extreme decentralization of rule.
The provision of health care, education and welfare most public spending was done by Awqaf.
The timely collection and distribution of zakat and the prevention of monopolies and the existance of open trading environment, and open distribution networks and a generally sound stable currency.

This was the pattern till the start of western domination, the first target was the awqaf, followed by an intriduction of banking then followed the gradual deterioration.

[Gabre]

As i said no such state existed for nearly 200 years.
That leaves allot of examples.
The first and best example is Medina, The prophet scw rule of medina was the blueprint for the other khalifa's,
even the rule of Bani Ummaya and the Bani Cabbas.
all the way to the 1840's when the Ottomans started converting into a western state slowly abandoning islam.

The characteristics was the non-existance of banking or interest, the extreme decentralization of rule.
The provision of health care, education and welfare most public spending was done by Awqaf.
The timely collection and distribution of zakat and the prevention of monopolies and the existance of open trading environment, and open distribution networks and a generally sound stable currency.

This was the pattern till the start of western domination, the first target was the awqaf, followed by an intriduction of banking then followed the gradual deterioration.

See, that sounds a lot like the Ikhwaan movement's line. What are these Western influences that corrupted Ikhwaan from being purely Traditional Islam then? Allowing banking and modern finance to exist?

[gurey25]

See, that sounds a lot like the Ikhwaan movement's line. What are these Western influences that corrupted Ikhwaan from being purely Traditional Islam then? Allowing banking and modern finance to exist?

The ikhwan accepts and swallows whole the alien western concept of the State, they accept banking and modern finance which makes them incompatible with Islam, the same with the salafis which is why the west really has no major issue with them.