Nigeria is now Africa's largest economy

[gurey25]

My argument is just that. Why have they not been given opportunities and incentives to build great nations and societies? There's only so much that colonialism can be blamed for. I'm not knocking the african people but their leaders. But since their ldaders are also africans, you can't help but look at the people as the problem. Before colonialism africa was poor and backward and after colonialism they are even poorer and more backwards. I'm not disparaging other africans and I as a somali have no place to do so. I guess my point is that building great empires and nations, making scientific and technological advancements and enriching world culture is the basis of success and civilisation. The asians can put forward evidence to the claim, so can the europeans. Outside of Egypt, what african nation can make such a claim?

There lies the problem !! your assumption that all of africa was poor and backwards.
What is your criteria for wealth? and what is your reference point for backwardness? compared to who and in which period?
What period do you want to start the comparison? 1800? 1900? or earlier 1500 perhaps?
and who do you compare to who?

Europeans were backwards in nearly all forms of technology used in day to day life except for Millitary technology in which they were the leaders from 1650 onwards. They were backwards when compared to China, and Korea and Vietnam and the Malayan/Indodensian states and Ofcourse India.
This was despite the renainsance and the revolution in science, Europe was ahead in science but was behind in technology.
They caught up to China by the 1750 and continued to exceed them, but still by the 1840's the poorest chinese peasant found goods produced in Britain to be far below standard and would not purchase it, forget about the higher classes, even the upper classes did not buy goods produced in englands factories.

Your average west african state was not too far behind europe in technology before the 1700's, European traders found the Housing and sanitation to be superior to what they were used to, and the cloth better than they had in europe, as well as the steel products.

Your image of bare nacked africans running around in grass skirts in the forest is outdated and based on what was written by europeans after they destroyed what existed and during colonization.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

My frame of reference is the last 1000 years. I've got a challenge for you. I'm not going to include the ancient world because despite many cultural achievements they were overrated, weren't technologically advanced and aristotlean metaphysics harmed scientific discovery more than it helped. Also I don't consider Egypt, Rome and Greece to be european civilisations but mediterranean ones anyway. It was the good days before eurocentrism and racial theories pollute the world.

Let's instead use the last thousand years. And let's not distinguish between science and technology because scientific discoveries ultimately lead to advances in tech. Name one cultural, scientific or technological discovery made in Africa in the last thousand years. I'll give an example of a european discovery e.g. Isaac Newtons theory of mechanics and his development of Calculus as a tool to study changes in motion.

[gurey25]

Let's instead use the last thousand years. And let's not distinguish between science and technology because scientific discoveries ultimately lead to advances in tech. Name one cultural, scientific or technological discovery made in Africa in the last thousand years. I'll give an example of a european discovery e.g. Isaac Newtons theory of mechanics and his development of Calculus as a tool to study changes in motion.

Science and technology are two different creatures.
You used Newtons england as an example , England at that time when compared to China or Korea and even Japan wasa shithole,
with even Newton himself and all the upper classes including the nobility having a lower standard of living than middle classes of east asia.
In every piece of technology apart from muskets, ships they were behind, the average person in europe diseases, smelly dirty and lived in hovels not fit for human habitation.

If you use scientific discovery as a criteria then England is more advanced and civilized in the 18th century than China, when in reality they were shit.
How about the other side of the argument, look at Kerala there was a school of kerala advanced theoretical mathematics .
Keralas standard of living was not as high as Korea for example but in your use of scientific discivery as a criterea kerala would be a greater civilization.

Now for west africa there were several states that were of a high level of urbanization and of a decent technological level when compared to europe in the 1700's , nigerian city states like oyo, ibadan and the empire of songhai.
and if you go back 2000+ years you have the haya people in tanzania who discovered open heart furnaces and made carbon steel hundreds of years before europe.The same in the air mountains mali.

you need to stop your racism clouded thinking and focus on making progress,finding the root causes of decay will lead to the right course.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Lol walaal who said I was racist? I don't ascribe to that nonsense. Anyway, how can I be racist against myself? My point was only, as a continent Africa needs to look hard at the problems which has kept it behind most of the world. You cannot deny Africans have contributed very little to mankind, and Somalis have contributed nothing. I don't judge a nation by standard of living but by it's cultural importance and tech/science discoveries. You've brought up Kerala and Korea, but they're not part of Africa. Yes Europe was behind China for thousands of years, but that doesn't negate European achievements which they used to fuel even greater discoveries and innovations. You've once said that the muslim world and the Chinese Song were on the brink of an industrialisation so who knows how the world would've turned out. But that doesn't negate my original point of Africans having liitle to contribute.

Is it geography? Poor leadership? Colonialism? Doesn't matter, the task now is for Africans to learn from the past. Right now it looks like they're repeating the same mistakes with the Chinese as they have with the Europeans. Anyway this isn't an exercise of self-hate. On the contrary, those who hate themselves and are insecure avoid asking themselves difficult questions.

[B-MAX]

Great points by Gurey25.

[MaliPrince]

My argument is just that. Why have they not been given opportunities and incentives to build great nations and societies? There's only so much that colonialism can be blamed for. I'm not knocking the african people but their leaders. But since their ldaders are also africans, you can't help but look at the people as the problem. Before colonialism africa was poor and backward and after colonialism they are even poorer and more backwards. I'm not disparaging other africans and I as a somali have no place to do so. I guess my point is that building great empires and nations, making scientific and technological advancements and enriching world culture is the basis of success and civilisation. The asians can put forward evidence to the claim, so can the europeans. Outside of Egypt, what african nation can make such a claim?

I feel sad for you. You have been so taken in by white supremacy, you don't even want to know the truth.

Yes before colonialism Africa was poor and backwards. But so was most of the rest of the world. The life of the average European in 1300 was not better off or different than the average African. Sure life in 1300 Paris was better than living in the Congo, but not everywhere in Europe was comprable to Paris or Rome. Those were just two small cities on a continent filled with people. You point out great civilizations in the past but what great civilizations did Europe have other than Greece and then Rome? Hitler was famous for having large parts of Germany excavated for ruins of an ancient civilization to compete with Rome and Greece. He was sure that the blonde hair, blue eyed Germans built a civilization greater than what the inferior Greeks or Romans did. But as we know, no such ancient civilization existed. Its no coincidence that all the great empires of antiquity where near the Mediterranean Ocean where 3 continents met and people were able to trade and transfer knowledge. Just as there are no great civilizations of antiquity in the heart of africa, there are no such great civlizations in the heart of europe. The great civilizations of the past were located at the cross-roads of the world where different types of people met.

The truth is, 500 years ago, most of the world was shit. But there were small shining spots among the general poverty. Like Paris was a beacon of civilization among the generally wild European continent, so did Africa have a few shining spots. Look no further than the great muslim Empire of Mali in West Africa which had the richest person in human history (Mansa Musa). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/1 ... 73840.html As well as Timbuktu, which was noted worldwide for its learning centers that foreigners would come to. Mali/Timbukti were by the standards of 1300 a first world city and in many cases superior to almost of all of the cities in Europe.

The reason people don't know about the few shining spots in Africa history is because its not taught or focused on in schools/universities NOT because they didn't exist.

[MaliPrince]

My argument is just that. Why have they not been given opportunities and incentives to build great nations and societies? There's only so much that colonialism can be blamed for. I'm not knocking the african people but their leaders. But since their ldaders are also africans, you can't help but look at the people as the problem. Before colonialism africa was poor and backward and after colonialism they are even poorer and more backwards. I'm not disparaging other africans and I as a somali have no place to do so. I guess my point is that building great empires and nations, making scientific and technological advancements and enriching world culture is the basis of success and civilisation. The asians can put forward evidence to the claim, so can the europeans. Outside of Egypt, what african nation can make such a claim?

There lies the problem !! your assumption that all of africa was poor and backwards.
What is your criteria for wealth? and what is your reference point for backwardness? compared to who and in which period?
What period do you want to start the comparison? 1800? 1900? or earlier 1500 perhaps?
and who do you compare to who?

Europeans were backwards in nearly all forms of technology used in day to day life except for Millitary technology in which they were the leaders from 1650 onwards. They were backwards when compared to China, and Korea and Vietnam and the Malayan/Indodensian states and Ofcourse India.
This was despite the renainsance and the revolution in science, Europe was ahead in science but was behind in technology.
They caught up to China by the 1750 and continued to exceed them, but still by the 1840's the poorest chinese peasant found goods produced in Britain to be far below standard and would not purchase it, forget about the higher classes, even the upper classes did not buy goods produced in englands factories.

Your average west african state was not too far behind europe in technology before the 1700's, European traders found the Housing and sanitation to be superior to what they were used to, and the cloth better than they had in europe, as well as the steel products.

Your image of bare nacked africans running around in grass skirts in the forest is outdated and based on what was written by europeans after they destroyed what existed and during colonization.

this.

the myth of european superiority is just that a MYTH. 800 years ago Europe was shaking in its boots in fear of Genghis Khan and the Mongols invading and ravaging Europe the way they did Baghdad and the Islamic empire.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

Who said they're superior? Did you even bother reading what I wrote?

[GAMES]

Good for them. I just hope they do something about that stupid prince over in Nigeria that spams my inbox about $20 million in swiss accounts.

[Tanker]

The Brits showed with Rhodesia that its possible to develop an African country to high level under heavy UN sanctions Rhodesia managed to have higher living standard than most European countries by independence the Zimbabweans had access to, education, clean water, housing

[GalliumerianSlayer]

The Brits showed with Rhodesia that its possible to develop an African country to high level under heavy UN sanctions Rhodesia managed to have higher living standard than most European countries by independence the Zimbabweans had access to, education, clean water, housing

So basically white folks can develop an African nation rather than Africans

[MaliPrince]

The Brits showed with Rhodesia that its possible to develop an African country to high level under heavy UN sanctions Rhodesia managed to have higher living standard than most European countries by independence the Zimbabweans had access to, education, clean water, housing

So basically white folks can develop an African nation rather than Africans

history works in funny ways.

3000 years ago the most powerful man in the world was a black african and the most powerful nation on earth was african (Egypt). it was not until the eiffel tower was raised in the 1800s that a building exceeded the height of the great pyramid in Giza built over 4500 years ago.

800 years ago the most powerful man on earth was a mongol (Genghis Khan) and the most powerful empire on earth was the mongol empire. to date, genghis khan's empire encompassed the largest contiguous land controlled by one nation. his reign was so powerful that DNA evidence today shows that nearly 10% of men in Asia (16 million men) are his direct descendants. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... nghis.html the mongols had conquered China and most of the Islamic world (the two most powerful empires in the world at that time). they were but a stone's throw from taking europe if genghis khan had not died. imagine how different history would've been if the mongols had invaded europe? just think about how much they changed the face of the asian steppe. this great war empire that nearly took over the entire known world now are one of the poorest nations of earth living as horse nomads in the steppe. and the europe that feared their wrath now controls the world.

I wrote all this to say that we shouldn't read too much into present day global predicaments. yes white people control the world. yes the most powerful countries are in europe or other white controlled states. we shouldn't take this to mean there is an inherent superiority in them or an inherent inferiority in us. the game of life someone leads to unusual circumstances.

[gurey25]

Is it geography? Poor leadership? Colonialism? Doesn't matter, the task now is for Africans to learn from the past. Right now it looks like they're repeating the same mistakes with the Chinese as they have with the Europeans. Anyway this isn't an exercise of self-hate. On the contrary, those who hate themselves and are insecure avoid asking themselves difficult questions.

Geography plays a big role, so does culture, available resources and the available technology to use such resources.
Europe was lucky in that it was not isolated it was connected to the world through intesive trade networks while at the same time
being rich in reousrces and having a large population.
Disunity also helped quite a bit, a united great empire in europe would have slowed down science and technology especially technology because war was the main driver of european technological development.
500 years of non stop war allowed them to perfect the art of warfare and allowed them to punch way above their weight even with inferior technology.
When they first got to India they discovered that only in muskets where they ahead, but their cannons where shit,
there ships where rubbish but the small caravels and nua of the Portuguese were good enough when used with skill even using inferior canons.
The Ming were world leaders in canon technology but did not use arqbueses or muskets, they got the technology from the Ottomans, the Japanese metalsmiths copied portuguese guns in 1540 and 60 years later were producing guns better designed than europe and fielding armies larger than most of europe.
What killed japanese innovation? peace!.
Europe never had peace, 1945 till 2014 69 years of peace is historically very unusual for Europe.