A grisly trend

[Lamagoodle]

^Let's be real, some of these parents don't care about the daughters well being, they just want money and some bragging stories.

In my humble opinion, the majority of parents do care about their daughters. Money is secondary. In most cases, it is the bride groom that lies about his social/economic standing. The parents trust the stories they are told.

[Lamagoodle]

Given our backward, clan-based and geel-jire mentality, I don't see that changing anytime soon (since such mindset can only be changed through revolutionary social change, imo) but I would rather see FGM uprooted and eradicated entirely ASAP. Get rid of that barbaric and brutal practice (which does the worst physical and emotional damage to our girls for life) and then educate the masses from the evils of marrying their young daughters to that old "qaraabo" (i.e., odayga jeebka qoyan. Not every old man gets a young girl, unless he's well off) man for exchange of money. But as I said early, priorities first. To me, no damage has ever been to our girls worse than FMG.

I agree with you. I will add education for girls; it all adds up to economic dependency. Education enables women to make money and not rely on losers.

FGM is not an issue in the major towns. I think this is an issue that needs to be tackled but I am concerned that FGM has become an academic/policy discourse in the west. All over the west, you will find somali women and other women preaching about the dangers of FGM. They are preaching to the wrong crowd. Most of these is not done in Somali and the motives are questionable. FGM has become big business in the west.

There, you hit the nail on the head. The first time I ever came across the issue of FGM was in 1996/7 when I read a book written by Raaqiya Omaar, I think (don't 100 % remember the author's name but it can be another Raaqiya) and to this day when that Pharaonic female circumcision is mentioned jirkaa i damqada, just remembering those painful stories related by the women interviewed by the author and the suffering they went/go through from the painful "operation" itself to the lack of hygiene from the tools used as well as during the recovering period. That's just the beginning. They talked about the hell they went through when menstruating and the horror of the first night of their wedding and then comes child-bearing when they have to be butchered and resown together again.

Dam it! Our women have it the worst, sxb.

I was once invited to give a speech at an event on FGM in the diaspora. Most of those attending were white middle class- middle aged women and a few xalimos. The language was not somali. I started by questioning why this was an issue in this small town with less than 10 somalis. I also mentioned that it is the WOMEN who are responsible. We, men, really don't care.

I engaged in polemics about the causes and how it should be addressed.

I was declared persona non grata after that.

No doubt FGM is horrible but I am not convinced it is as spread as we are thought to believe.

[Jabuutawi]

Nothing grisly about it. She gets a U.S. passport, free to work and, as soon as she lands in America, becomes queen of the hill. Fadhi ku dirir Faraaxs have no say after that. It is a two-way street -- she gets all the amenities that come with a Western passport, he gets fresh punani, or so one would hope.

[Lamagoodle]

"FGM is not a problem in towns," deluded. Making claims you have no proof of and are patently false.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/csw/cs ... ng_FGM.pdf

pg 29

I might be deluded but I know what I am talking about. There are no major studies undertaken to discern the prevalence in somali towns. Most of the literature on FGM is what scientists’ term as anecdotal evidence and discourse based studies.

We know this though; Already in the 1980s (there was statistics) the prevalence of FGM was on a downward trend in major cities in Somalia.

We should be critical and not participate in the production of conventional wisdoms.

[0sman]

LOL @ I was declared persona non grata.

Well, I am not sure what the practice is like back home now and I don't know the last time you visited back home but in the late 90's, right in Mogadishu, I heard some horrifying stories where mothers were telling the "doctor" performing the gudniin "Meel yar oo masago la eg oo ay ka kaadiso u reeb inta kale ka xir".

Yes, around the same time (in late 90's to early 2000's) when I left the country, the number of akhwaan groups were on the rise and with that came the practice of 'sunni' gudniin but still I believe the practice is widely performed because a lot of parents believe if their daughters aren't butchered well they are not clean and turn into bad girls etc.

[FieldMarshalMenace]

Julkimi, it's easy for you to say all these things when you have no idea the poverty 80% of our people are in. Your expectations and a girl your age in Somalia's expectations are worlds apart. When someone has never felt full ( unlike you who just raided the fridge) and they see a chance to feed her family 3x a day by just getting married to a guy no matter what age, to her it is a dream come through. Remember that poverty had already stole her dignity and self worth. She doesn't even know how beautiful she is bc a lot if the cases the girls that hail from poor families are drop dead gorgeous. She rarely has looked herself in the mirror bc she has being preoccupied with gaajonimo. She was born into it. So if a 58 year man ( lamagoodle for example ) wants to marry her then she is perfectly fine with it bc to her is about salvation for her and family. As a matter of fact we should praise an honest older gentlemen for marrying into such a family and taking a whole family out of poverty.

[Julkimi]

Menace: What's with the personal attack lately?. You're right I have no idea what they're going through. But I still would like to see our girls not being married off to an old geezer.

And FYI Lamagoodle is not that old, you're probably older than him.

[Lamagoodle]

LOL @ I was declared persona non grata.

Well, I am not sure what the practice is like back home now and I don't know the last time you visited back home but in the late 90's, right in Mogadishu, I heard some horrifying stories where mothers were telling the "doctor" performing the gudniin "Meel yar oo masago la eg oo ay ka kaadiso u reeb inta kale ka xir".

Yes, around the same time (in late 90's to early 2000's) when I left the country, the number of akhwaan groups were on the rise and with that came the practice of 'sunni' gudniin but still I believe the practice is widely performed because a lot of parents believe if their daughters aren't butchered well they are not clean and turn into bad girls etc.

Saaxib, there are some horrific stories about the practice. All I am saying is that FGM is not as spread as it used to be. We have come along way. I remember my mom telling me "dhaahirba ma aha" when I told her that I wanted to marry a non-somali woman.

I have read studies done in the Nordic countries and there is no consensus; Some studies focus on the mothers that have undergone FGM back home in Africa and labour. Others focus on the practise itself. Most of the studies are case studies and lack generalisation.

We could take cases of reported FGM in the diaspora as a proxy; FGM is a crime in the west. How many cases were reported? How many parents were found guilty? Not that many. In Sweden, it is less than half a dozen. Granted there are some unreported cases but the question is; Is it as widespread as we are told?.

[Lamagoodle]

Julkimi, it's easy for you to say all these things when you have no idea the poverty 80% of our people are in. Your expectations and a girl your age in Somalia's expectations are worlds apart. When someone has never felt full ( unlike you who just raided the fridge) and they see a chance to feed her family 3x a day by just getting married to a guy no matter what age, to her it is a dream come through. Remember that poverty had already stole her dignity and self worth. She doesn't even know how beautiful she is bc a lot if the cases the girls that hail from poor families are drop dead gorgeous. She rarely has looked herself in the mirror bc she has being preoccupied with gaajonimo. She was born into it. So if a 58 year man ( lamagoodle for example ) wants to marry her then she is perfectly fine with it bc to her is about salvation for her and family. As a matter of fact we should praise an honest older gentlemen for marrying into such a family and taking a whole family out of poverty.

[Lamagoodle]

Menace: What's with the personal attack lately?. You're right I have no idea what they're going through. But I still would like to see our girls not being married off to an old geezer.

And FYI Lamagoodle is not that old, you're probably older than him.

Julkimi, for weird reasons ppl tend to equate reasoning with age

[FieldMarshalMenace]

Menace: What's with the personal attack lately?. You're right I have no idea what they're going through. But I still would like to see our girls not being married off to an old geezer.

And FYI Lamagoodle is not that old, you're probably older than him.

Julkimi , we cool, I ain't attacking you!

Basically all I'm saying is that I've been there recently and I completely understand why they would sacrifice their fresh punani to an old geezer. You realize that they don't see the undesirable factors that we see, the fact that he could be her grandpa's age and the fact that she too young and needs to experience life first. The things that you hope for them, Julkimi, are a luxury that is taken for granted by a lot of Somalis in the west. We live in a superficial world here. I wish that I can go back home every year and half so I can always comeback the way I comeback with deep self reflection and new perspective in life. Visiting Africa, Somalia in particular, will make you understand the main reason that we should be in the West, which is to cease the opportunity of education and work hard, save up and go back home in order to create a business in order to justify why you were so lucky to be given the chance to be in the west by fate.

[0sman]

Lam, it seems you're talking about the practice of FGM in the West and I am talking about back home. In the West I don't think it is even done at all (except few who take their kids back to Africa and do it there, and some of them get into trouble when they get back).

There is no question that female circumcision is done back home (I can even claim 100 or 99 %) but what percentage is FGM and what's other types of circumcision?

[0sman]

Menace: What's with the personal attack lately?. You're right I have no idea what they're going through. But I still would like to see our girls not being married off to an old geezer.

And FYI Lamagoodle is not that old, you're probably older than him.

Julkimi , we cool, I ain't attacking you!

Basically all I'm saying is that I've been there recently and I completely understand why they would sacrifice their fresh punani to an old geezer. You realize that they don't see the undesirable factors that we see, the fact that he could be her grandpa's age and the fact that she too young and needs to experience life first. The things that you hope for them, Julkimi, are a luxury that is taken for granted by a lot of Somalis in the west. We live in a superficial world here. I wish that I can go back home every year and half so I can always comeback the way I comeback with deep self reflection and new perspective in life. Visiting Africa, Somalia in particular, will make you understand the main reason that we should be in the West, which is to cease the opportunity of education and work hard, save up and go back home in order to create a business in order to justify why you were so lucky to be given the chance to be in the west by fate.

Am I the only one who is every now and then awestruck by menace, the liberator's eloquence and discussion skills, and then you see him chatting like a 5 year old kid with down syndrome in other threads?

Menace, awoowe, keep on this mature approach to discussions very often and stop your liberating struggle and in no time single-mothers will flock to your doorsteps, sxb.

[Lamagoodle]

Lam, it seems you're talking about the practice of FGM in the West and I am talking about back home. In the West I don't think it is even done at all (except few who take their kids back to Africa and do it there, and some of them get into trouble when they get back).

There is no question that female circumcision is done back home (I can even claim 100 or 99 %) but what percentage is FGM and what's other types of circumcision?

You could be right. My rants earlier on FGM concerned the diaspora. But that could be a proxy to identify the percentage of FGM in Africa too. If we assume, for instance, that 3 000 somali women of adult age arrived in Finland 2001-2011, we could in theory take a randomised sample in hospitals (many seek healthcare) and conclude that x% of women have undergone FGM. That was my point. Most of the studies I read did not address the issue of prevalence. They focus on the effects of FGM.

Back to Somali inhabited terrorities; we don't know. All we know is that things have improved.

As regards the typology, based on anecdotal evidence and the literature I have read (diaspora somali women who visit gynaecologists), there is a relationship between age and fircoonic FGM.

Now, the question is is one kind of FGM better than another one? Difficult to answer.

[0sman]

I see.

Regarding your last point (is one type better than another?), it's better that girls aren't circumcised at all (that's my opinion) but since that will take time and if it comes to one or the other, then yes, one is better than the other.

The two common female circumcisions Somalis use are the Pharaonic one and the sunni (as I mentioned early). Comparing the two and their effects on the victims, of course the sunni one is preferable than the butchering one (that's if there is no escape and the matter becomes 'Labo daran mid dooro').