The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Libaax*"]i think basra has point when she says people have to wonder and say why is it they are hated so much since the dawn of time they have been prosicuted by every civalisation and nearly every religion, but why??.[/quote]

Libaax,

I know -- from reading your posts in the past -- that you're historically challenged. Don't feel bad, many ppl are with you in this ignorance. In fact the overwhelming majority of humanity is awfully ignorant of history. Hence the propensity of repeating past mistakes and never learning from history.

But when you take it upon yourself to join a discussion like this one, it would help your credibility to pretend that you know some history. After all who would take the word of a person who doesn't know the ABCs of the subject he's conversing in? Would you?

For example, you say 'some' civilisation and NEVER 'every' civilisation. That is what you did. YOu said 'ever civilisation' prosecuted the jews and that should thrust ME, the man who loves the jews for no reason, into wonderment. I say OK.

BUT!... first show me that EVERY civilisation presecuted the jooos. Or I'll make easier and to safe time, show me that the majority of civilisations hated the jews. If you do that, I solemnly promise that I'll start questioning the source of the jewish mistrust and dislike.

I make this request becuz the history of civilisation I'm familiar with says aside from Christians and Muslims who got their religions from the JOOS, no other civilisation even noticed the joos existed let alone mistreat them. Are you telling me the Incas were sacrificing Joos to placard their Gods in their Temples? Are you telling me the great Southern Africa Bantu Empires ... the Indus Valley, Persian, Greek, Chinese empires all hated the Joos...the native americans too...the Iglu dwelling Eskimos... all hated and prosecuted the joos so systemically and customarily that they somehow they managed to hide all of that hate and ALL of its manifestations from the historical record, to the point that today there is not a SINGLE shred of evidence that joos were hated by any civilisation other then Christians and Muslims? Man that is some serious, 007 type concealment! I wonder how they managed? Hmm...

[dhuusa_deer]

Gurey25,

"Whats wrong with that.
First of all those figures are made up and wrong, they do not come from sources in the area."

Let's not divert this discussion from the overall treatment of the Jews by muslims, which was the whole purpose of this thread, to minor albiet incriminating and embarrassing treatment of the Banu Qureysh jews. I don't care what happened to the 600 -900 males of that village cause that kind of barbarity was sort of the norm in those days. But I do care when ppl in this day and age are actually defending and excusing it.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="GoodNews"]quote="dhuusa_deer"]Globe,

Somalis hate the jews becuz of the arabs, Islam is blameless in my opinion. Somalis worship arabs, everything arabs do and believe is divine and demand blind imitation. Sad![/quote]

There are so many quotes about Jews (and Christians also) in the Quran.
Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.[/quote]

You are right, there ARE many demeaning and demonizing verses in the Quran about the jews (and some about the Christians, atheists, pagans...). But what are we to make of them in Anno Domini 2005?

Well...if you're honest, you'll ignore them...but if you're really really really honest and objective individual, you'll dismiss them as false. Why?

Cause the Quran has been shown to contain false facts. Like the sun setting in muddy spring or the earth being flat. This makes anything the quran says as FACT or TRUE highly suspicious. Coupled to that are FACTS that we can easily ascertain about jews OURSELVES. Why depend on a book written 1400 years ago to judge your nieghbours, classmates, co-workers, doctors, lawyers, friends..?

Are the jews sons of apes and monkeys as the quran suggests? Can we prove that TODAY? Let's take the DNA of jews and see if they have any MONKEY DNA, waddya say?

But what if they DO have MONKEY DNA, just like YOU. What then? Was Allah lying?

If he was lying, then why take to heart and as a fact anything he says?

And about your prophet...he too is has said some stupid things like the two wings of flies carrying a poison and its antidote. Should we trust him when we know camel piss is NOT medicinal as he suggested?

If you wanna discuss the Jews and why they're hated or should be hated, lets debate with modern facts and stats and NOT what some long dead guy said or 1400 year text.

[gurey25]

After the jews leart to live with thier new position, what they did was to enthusiasticaly support the muslims against everyone else.

Just 10 years after thier defeat by the muslims, the jews in Syria and Iraq
overwhelmingly supported the Muslim armies.
Infact the christian Byzantians banned all jews from living in Jerusalem.
When the muslims conquered jerusalem there were no jews,
put the clock forward to the Crusades and then you see that the Jews made up nearly half the population during muslim rule, and fled with the muslims when the christians took over.

The conquest of Spain was with the active support of the large jewish population. Infact the jews helped form the allaince between the muslims and some members of the Gothic arsistocracy.
Jews dominated the administration of Muslim Spain and it was thier golden age. Most of thier literature comes from Muslim spain, thier greatest poets,
and writings.


Salaxudeens Personal doctor and close friend was Maimonides,
also a famous scientist who escaped the christain hordes in his Spanish home and chose to immigrate to Egypt.
The jews today consider maimonedes one of thier greatest scholars and still study his work.


Al andalus was very strange indeed !
Where else would you find a Jew in charge of a muslim Emirate,
and a commander of a muslim army.




Finaly in 1492 with the fall of Grenada the last muslim emirate in Spain,
Grenadas jews as well as a good part of its population moved to north africa. The Sultan of the ottomans provided funds to help them settle in his country, where they still exist today.
In those days Muslims viewed the jews as a usefull population to have.

[dhuusa_deer]

"Finaly in 1492 with the fall of Grenada the last muslim emirate in Spain,
Grenadas jews as well as a good part of its population moved to north africa. The Sultan of the ottomans provided funds to help them settle in his country, where they still exist today.
In those days Muslims viewed the jews as a usefull population to have."

So what?

No body is suggesting that jews were mistreated by Muslims during Islam's entire 1500 year history. And no body is also disputing the jews fared better under muslim rule then under christian rule. You can find NUMEROUS instances of commendable tolerance and amity towards the jews by muslims.

The contentious issue here is two fold:

1) That muslims mistreated jews as documented both by Islamic and nonislamic history. The historical record in this regard is indisputeable. We can rationalise, put things into perspective, contextualise, compare vis-a-vis Christianity all we want but that doesn't absolve muslims of gross iniquities they subjected jews through. Just like Americans will never be absolved of slaving and mistreating blacks by how fair, just, tolerant they treat blacks today. A wrong is a wrong is a wrong regardless of time and place.

2) Islam's unwillingness to accept RESPONSIBILITY, BLAME, GUILT of its past WRONGDOINGS.

Christians today accept that Christainity was partly responsible for the Holocaust; directly repsonsible for the witch burning, scolding of scientists who suggested the earth was not the centre of the universe, crusades, slavery and whole galore of injustices, bigorty, illiteracy, backwardness...The result today is a societies that are DRIVEN by guilt to correct past mistakes and never ever allow the past to reappear again. The tangible results of this is seen in greater rights for individuals, protection of minorities, guaranteed rights protected by LAW...some of these rights allow YOU -- as a member of minority -- to live your life equal to everyone else.

Muslims unwillingness to accept reponsibility is the cause for the rampant and rabid anti-semetism we witness today.

[gurey25]

anti-semetism or more accuratley anti-zionism is nothing to be ashamed of.
Muslims do not have the shame of the holocaust to excuse every act of the jews. You have been too westernised man.
Call any arab or a muslim an Anti-semite and you will either get a smile
(while he takes it as a compliment) or have no reaction because it has no effect on his or her psyche.

On the other hand call any european or American an anti- semite and he will be ashamed and attempt to defend himself of the accusation, even if the person was a neo nazi.

Dhuuse unlike you there are many people who do not have your conditioning.

The holocuast was terrible a blot on humanity, but shit happens.
This doesnt excuse Zionism.
Hitler genocides the jews and the Palestinians pay for germanys crimes.

[dhuusa_deer]

Gurey25,

You are right that muslims (not all) are proud to be called anti-semites because they can not tell right from wrong. There is moral abulia among muslims. There is NO conscience!

How do you explain mothers celebrating the sucessful suicide operation carried out by HER kid, who was sent out to kill other children.

How do you explain muslim world's biggest hero being a self-confessed mass murderer.

How do you explain the muslim indifference to calls of mass killings by imams on Friday prayers.

Is it coicidence that almost all of the countries are dictatorships, autocrats, satraps, kingdoms, fiefs...why hasn't the muslim masses got up and get rid of of their undemocratic governments and replaced them with something better.

Forget about how the muslims view the jews, how do muslims get along with others? Why is it next to impossible to build churchs, synagogues, temples in muslim countries. Why is it impossible to proselytizes or leave Islam is Islamic nations. Why can't a muslim say, " No thank you, Islam and Mohammed is not for me." What happens to such person?

Why is it where there is sizable muslim and nonmuslim in close proximatey, there is strife.

Why can't the Pope, Dalie Lama and the Mufti of Mecca walk into medina on good will visit? Why are the best nonmuslims NIJAS or IMPURE but the worst muslims are GOOD and can go to mecca and medina.

You see intolerance and lack of conscience to see intolerance, iniquity and take note of it and correct it is not part of Islam. Intolerance is inscribed in the Quran where is says 'dont take christians and jews as friends.' That has been put into practice by muslims throughout the centuries.

Muslim are not responsible for the Holocause but will be for a new holocaust. They only thing stopping them is the West and the democratic world.

[gurey25]

[quote]You are right that muslims (not all) are proud to be called anti-semites because they can not tell right from wrong. There is moral abulia among muslims. There is NO conscience! [/quote]

What are you talking about, what does this have to do with muslims,
We have valid reasons for seeing them as enemies, because they have implanted their state in the muslim heartland while the muslim world was
under colonial rule.
So you are saying that everything the jew does is legitimate.
There is a difference between hatred of all jews and bieng Anti-zionist.
I am probably among the most Jew friendly here in Somalinet and count even Isrealis among my friends.



[quote]How do you explain mothers celebrating the sucessful suicide operation carried out by HER kid, who was sent out to kill other children.

How do you explain muslim world's biggest hero being a self-confessed mass murderer. [/quote]

Conditions in Palestine are due to unusual circumstances, and evolved over meny years of oppression.
If you are refering to Osama bin ladin. he is popular not because he is amass muderer , but because the west sees him as an evil enemy.
Privately most Islamic scholars are against him, even if they are also extremely anti-western, probably due to that fact that he lacks religous authority and knowledge yet issues fatwas left and right.

[quote]Is it coicidence that almost all of the countries are dictatorships, autocrats, satraps, kingdoms, fiefs...why hasn't the muslim masses got up and get rid of of their undemocratic governments and replaced them with something better.
[/quote]

This is temperory and the future will bring possibly worse conditions
Everybody else has been through this, European society and its technological dominance was partly due to 300 years of non stop warfare
and atrocities.


[quote]Forget about how the muslims view the jews, how do muslims get along with others? Why is it next to impossible to build churchs, synagogues, temples in muslim countries. Why is it impossible to proselytizes or leave Islam is Islamic nations. Why can't a muslim say, " No thank you, Islam and Mohammed is not for me." What happens to such person? [/quote]
Iam not a scholar so cant really answer you there, maybe someone here with more knowledge could.


[quote]Muslim are not responsible for the Holocause but will be for a new holocaust. They only thing stopping them is the West and the democratic world[/quote]
Muslims are weak, divided and a confused people, we cannot defend ourselves let alone be a threat to anybody.
this is all exagerated by the west because they need a new enemy, after the end of the cold war.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="gurey25"][quote]You are right that muslims (not all) are proud to be called anti-semites because they can not tell right from wrong. There is moral abulia among muslims. There is NO conscience! [/quote]

What are you talking about, what does this have to do with muslims,
We have valid reasons for seeing them as enemies, because they have implanted their state in the muslim heartland while the muslim world was
under colonial rule.[quote]

Gurey25,

Seeing your enemies as your enemies is not only justified but absolute necessity. For survival more then anything. But that is not what I'm talking about. Muslim have every1 as their enemies. By every1 I mean any nonmuslim. Do you know that not long ago, I think it was in the summer, a pakistani man was hacked to death by his fellow country men. It wasn't religiously organised event, it was SPONTANEOUS. For simply stating his disbelieve in God he paid for his life.

Now I know as you have pointed out correctly that not all muslims would have approved or participated in such gruesome act. But they are in the minority and to make things even worse are scared to death to speak out against the majority who they know are out of their minds. That is the reality of the muslim world in Anno Domini 2005.

You say: "Conditions in Palestine are due to unusual circumstances, and evolved over meny years of oppression.If you are refering to Osama bin ladin. he is popular not because he is amass muderer , but because the west sees him as an evil enemy."

No amount of iniquity justifies the actions of mass murderers. Muslims support Osama bin laden becuz he hates and brings death and woe on Kafirs who muslims hate so much. He is doing what they love to do themselves. And that is why I say there is NO conscience, there is no empathy for fellow human beings among muslims. They are either muslims or not. If not muslims, then it is religiously OK to do what you like to them. This means every little dispute turns into battle of God vs Satan.

"Muslims are weak, divided and a confused people, we cannot defend ourselves let alone be a threat to anybody. this is all exagerated by the west because they need a new enemy, after the end of the cold war"

No arguement that the West needs enemy now that the USSR is gone. Empires (US) need to militarily and economically grow or they'll die out. What excuse for military growth if there are no enemies. So it makes sense for some in the US to exaggerate the threat of Islamofacism. But you and I both KNOW that a harmless religion, say Hunduism, can be sold to Westerners as being a threat to them. It won't wash for obvious reasons.

The reason Islam is seen as threat is what it does to its ppl and others. Turn on the TV and what do you see. Muslim youths torching vehicles and buildings. Entire cities in Sweden are shout-off to ambulances by muslims who hurl rocks at them. Can you believe it ?! Denying the enterance of ambulances to save lifes. We see lapidation, cliteroctomy, limp chopping, Sharia gone mad, talibans, imams instead of calling for peace and co-existance calling for murder and enmity, cities of brotherhood (meca and medina) shut out to rest of humanity, poverty, strife and wars, lack of decent governments, illiteracy, dearth of inventions...THESE are the reasons why Islam is considered a THREAT world over. If it is not blowing things like as in NYC, Bali, Beslan, Madrid, London, Casablanca, it is dulling and darkening the muslim masses minds to render them ineffectionate and incapable of being bothered what the rest of HUMANITY already has reached as WRONG, Immoral, no questions asked.