You're the Somali Education Minister !!!!!

[Gedo_Boy]

OK, for the sake of expedient recovery. Good point.

[PragmaticGal]

GB, definitely.

August Kekule dreamed about a snake swallowing its own tail (known as an ouroboros), which made him realize that the chemical structure of benzene was a ring. Imagine if something as fanciful as an ouroboros was banned under DD's system since it did not conform to reality.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Gedo_Boy"]I think creativity is something that's very important. I think arts can help with bringing up creativity.[quote]

Every child and dunce is capable of creativity. What gives?



More importantly, what is the dividing line between intelligence and stupidity?


Hint: it's not creativity and it's not imagination!

[Gedo_Boy]

The idea is not to encourage rote memorization or just a 'monkey see monkey do' form of learning.

Sometimes, people need a creative outlet. If that is stifled and people are encouraged to either be doctor, scientist, or engineer, a lot of people will think that you only have to do 1 or 2 things to be succesful.

This will encourage people to not do what they're passionate about in order to feel like they are doing something prestigious.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="PragmaticGal"]GB, definitely.

August Kekule dreamed about a snake swallowing its own tail (known as an ouroboros), which made him realize that the chemical structure of benzene was a ring. Imagine if something as fanciful as an ouroboros was banned under DD's system since it did not conform to reality.[/quote]

don't equivocate now, you know that's not art... FACTS won the day. That's science! Not art, not painting, not music, not drama... all provide no solution to any present problem besetting humanity.

BTW: reality is not about conformity, rather demonstrability...

[Gedo_Boy]

[quote="dhuusa_deer"]
More importantly, what is the dividing line between intelligence and stupidity?
Hint: it's not creativity and it's not imagination![/quote]


I don't think people have a handle on what intelligence is. There are different forms of intelligence.

If there was only 1 form of intelligence, the best lawyer would make the best scientist, who would make the best architect, who would make the best mechanical engineer.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Gedo_Boy"]Sometimes, people need a creative outlet. [quote]

But to what practical end? That's my whole point! It's one thing to partake in an endeavor for the sake of embettering current conditions or solving future problems... it's another to partake just so you can release your creativity. THe former is OBJECTIVELY usefull, the latter is objectively useless.

Of course, i'm pulling your leg with banning art all together call. It's pure wishful thinking on my part. But I would definately support increasing the place of Science and critical thinking in schooling curricula.

[Gedo_Boy]

James Clerk Maxwell discovered the mathematical relationship between Electricity & Magnetism.

Maxwell's Equations are some of the most elegant & powerful mathematical tools and provide the basis for practically ALL of electrical engineering (electronics, power, radio, etc) and provided the foundational work for other scientists like Einstein.

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~kaldon/clas ... tegral.GIF

He based all his mathematical work on the vivid descriptions of Michael Faraday - who was virtually uneducated and ignorant of mathematics, but had a marvellous intuition, vivid mental imagery, and ability to describe his observations.


Similarly, someone who is artistically inclined, probably means that intuitively they have an understanding of symmetry which can be exploited or be the source of inspiration for someone who is scientifically gifted.

[Gedo_Boy]

"But to what practical end? "

Yeah, I understand what you're saying........I just think there is some kind of relationship that is not fully understood between arts & sciences.


For example, take poetry. Why does someone who is a poet have so much influence? Why does the way he/she word things resonate so much with a person.

It's kind of like an analogy to resonant frequency of materials. Perhaps the patterns, the format of the word choice, grammar structure causes a psychological reaction in the person.

Who knows, it's possible that maybe such poetry causes an analogy to something that helps someone understand something scientifically.

A lot of science was discovered by analogy, "This pheonmenon had the same patterns as XYZ"

[PragmaticGal]

DD, what are you going on about? What is the goal of education and development? Why should a "practical end" be the objective? Which practical end? To make sure everyone can save 30% of their earnings? To increase overall happiness? What would be the point of a society which sacrifices individual liberty and creativity to get on the fast-track to nowhere?

The most unifying definition of human achievement is the arts, not the sciences. Every culture and society over all time has had singers, painters, dancers, poets, and magicians. Only a few produce the systemic sciences you're so enamoured with. The fact that you can suggest (even jokingly) that banning the arts is wishful thinking on your part is puzzling.

The empty posturing in place of making real contributions to discussions is irritating. Are you claiming that there's no poetry, work of art, piece of music or sample of literature that you appreciate?

[PragmaticGal]

GB, should all human endeavours have a practical end?

[dhuusa_deer]

GedoBoy,

Imagination and creativity are innate qualities that ALL humans possess, that includes toddlers and even other primates (some primates are capable of symbolic language albiet in limited capacity).

Max Planck was creativite and imaginative but so was Hitler. Imagination and creativity are not objective yardsticks to measure human intelligence. Only demonstrability is. You can, for example, say I'm a genuis but without SHOWING your genuis, it's just your word.

Suppose you have 2 men both equally knowledgable in mathematics. They both have all the mathematical knowledge they need to solve certain type of mathematical problems. You give both the same set of questions to solve. Both are able to complete the problems. But only 1 solves them CORRECTLY, the other flunks throughout. The test is repeated several times and the same result obtains. Objectively speaking, the one that correctly solved the problem set can be said to be intelligent.

[PragmaticGal]

[quote="dhuusa_deer"]Suppose you have 2 men both equally knowledgable in mathematics. They both have all the mathematical knowledge they need to solve certain type of mathematical problems. You give both the same set of questions to solve. Both are able to complete the problems. But only 1 solves them CORRECTLY, the other flunks throughout. The test is repeated several times and the same result obtains. Objectively speaking, the one that correctly solved the problem set can be said to be intelligent.[/quote]

Nonsense. Objectively, all you've demonstrated is that you can create a set of problems that one person can solve but another cannot. You've NOT defined intelligence. Did you control for all variables? Do you even know what the variables are? There's a reason universal IQ tests died an ignoble death.

What if the man who could not answer the problems correctly can write a piece of music that listeners find a pleasure to hear, but the other one is completely tone-deaf? What's your yardstick for intelligence?

[Cawar]

^^Why do you have to chase him and drive him away all the time??

I feel sympathy for Dhuuso all the sudden..


"What's your yardstick for intelligence?"

I dont know about others...but I consider my Grandma to have been the most intelligent somali woman ever and she never studied anything in her life...then again she was my grandma so I am being bias ....obviously...

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="PragmaticGal"] What is the goal of education and development? [quote]

I would direct you to read Thomas Huxley essay Liberal Education, most of it mirrors my views. I would aslo add that the answer to the question "what is the goal of education and development" depends in many ways on the society for which this question is asked on behalf. What's useful and productive for one society is not always workable and usefull for another. Generally speaking, the role of Education *should* be to give it's young (or old) the tools to solve future challenges.



[quote]Why should a "practical end" be the objective?[quote]

Because it DEMONSTRABLE. You know this, so I must ask why you're feigning credulity here? "Practical end" IS objective because we can SHOW that is leads to the successful resolution to current and future intractable problems.



[quote]The most unifying definition of human achievement is the arts, not the sciences. [quote]

What a shocking thing to say but I'd like you to demonstrate it's truth. Else, it's merely subjective claim. It can objectively be established that science is without peers the single most important human enterprise. Nothing else even comes close.



[quote]Every culture and society over all time has had singers, painters, dancers, poets, and magicians.[quote]

List the problems they solved....

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.


Art tends to our contemplative needs, it's meant to entertain us for pete sakes... not solve our problems. Beyond entertain us, Poetry can't answer our problems, it can't predict for us a path to follow for the future unlike science, it can't summon fact to support any of it's claims and it certainly can't help us increase our knowledge.

Tell me, why is it the sucessful countries of world today are those where science and scientific way of thinking has taken deep roots. Do you think it's ENTIRELY accidental the corellation between the ability of society to solve it's problems (ie much of the developed world) and it's level scientific development? How about Somalis? Here you got ppl who know nothing but poetry, a sublime form of art I'm sure you'd agree. What has it got Somalis? All that poetry and still dirt poor and woefully benighted.

[quote]Are you claiming that there's no poetry, work of art, piece of music or sample of literature that you appreciate?[/quote]

On the contrary, I appreciate art in plentful... just know art for what art is and what it isn't.