I hate America and their fake democracy

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#1baller
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by #1baller »

[quote="Padishah"]

"Oh, and #1baller, you're source believes that the Great Library of Alexandria was destroyed by the Muslims, when they conquered Egypt. Now, its a well documented fact that the Great Library of Alexandria was destroyed by Ceasar's defence of Alexandria on behalf of Cleopatra. Now, if this is the quality of scholarship from your source, then I decry your sense of reason."

Padishah,

It has never been proven by any means that Julius Caesar destoyed the Great Library of Alexandria. He was accused of doing it because he was in Alexandria in 47-48 BC and he did admit to setting alight the dockyards and the Alexandrine fleet ffor his own safety but he never admitted to destroying the Great Library. Even the narrative versions of the Civil wars by one of his then lieutenants makes no mention of him even setting fire to Alexandria. The jury is still out and remains a mystery of the fate of the great Library.

What's also interesting and quite fitting was that you never once mentioned that there were other suspects besides Julis Caesar. Shocked

Here take a look at this article:

"What happened to the Royal Library of Alexandria? We can be certain it was there once, founded by Ptolomy II Soter, and we can be equally certain it is not there now. It formed part of the Museum which was located in the Bruchion or palace quarter of the city of Alexandria. This great ancient city, occupying a spit of land on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, had been founded by Alexander the Great in his flying visit to Egypt and became the capital of the last dynasty of Pharaohs descended from Alexander's general Ptolemy. The Great or more properly Royal Library formed a part of the Museum but whether or not it was a separate building is unclear."

"Stories about its demise have been circulating for centuries and date back to at least the first century AD. These stories continue to be told and embellished today by those who wish to make a moral attack against the alleged vandals. We find that three parties are blamed for the destruction and they correspond to the three occupying powers that ruled Alexandria after it had been lost by the Greeks. Let me first tell those stories as we hear them today - without references, largely inaccurate and used as polemic. Then I will try and establish what, if anything we can know before finally and rather indulgently making my own suggestions."

"The suspects respectively are a Roman, a Christian and a Moslem - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Caliph Omar of Damascus. It is clear that the Royal Library could not have been burnt down or otherwise destroyed by all three of these characters and so we find we have too many sources for the event of the destruction rather than a paucity. As scholars of the Gospels will vouch, this too can be an embarrassment. How we decide to reconcile the stories will depend almost entirely on how we criticise the sources and which of them we choose to consider most reliable."
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by musika man »

destruction of christianity, destruction of muslims, what a fake debate coming from somalis who destroyed each other in this day and age.

galia, america is the best country, something is terribly wrong with habargedir. do you know what it is?
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Abdination »

You hate America, and yet you live in it. Get your head out of your ass.
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Padishah »

From the Wikipedia article:


In 391, Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request[10]. Socrates Scholasticus provides the following account of the destruction of the temples in Alexandria in the fifth book of his Historia Ecclesiastica, written around 440:

5th century scroll which illustrates the destruction of the Serapeum by Theophilus


“At the solicitation of Theophilus bishop of Alexandria the emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples.”


The Serapeum housed part of the Library, but it is not known how many books were contained in it at the time of destruction. Notably, Paulus Orosius admitted in the sixth book of his History against the pagans: "Today there exist in temples book chests which we ourselves have seen, and, when these temples were plundered, these, we are told, were emptied by our own men in our time, which, indeed, is a true statement." Some or all of the books may have been taken, but any books left in the Serapeum at the time would have been destroyed when it was razed to the ground.

As for the Museum, Mostafa El-Abbadi writes in Life and Fate of the ancient Library of Alexandria (Paris 1992):


“The Mouseion, being at the same time a 'shrine of the Muses', enjoyed a degree of sanctity as long as other pagan temples remained unmolested. Synesius of Cyrene, who studied under Hypatia at the end of the fourth century, saw the Mouseion and described the images of the philosophers in it. We have no later reference to its existence in the fifth century. As Theon, the distinguished mathematician and father of Hypatia, herself a renowned scholar, was the last recorded scholar-member (c. 380), it is likely that the Mouseion did not long survive the promulgation of Theodosius' decree in 391 to destroy all pagan temples in the City."


The tale of the Muslim destruction of the Library comes from several Alexandrian historians, writing several hundred years later. The legend has it that the caliph Umar posed to commander Amr bin al 'Ass the following dilemma: "Touching the books you mention, if what is written in them agrees with the Book of God, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore." [11] The tale goes on to say that the books fueled the city's bath-houses for the next six months. Since the 18th century, this story has been universally regarded as a fiction. Normally it has been put down to Christian crusader propaganda, but recently some historians, including Bernard Lewis, have argued that although the tale is certainly false, its true origin may be more complex.[12][13]

Although the actual circumstances and timing of the physical destruction of the Library remains uncertain, it is however clear that by the 8th century, the Library was no longer a significant institution and had ceased to function in any important capacity. Alexandria was not a major research center for the Islamic world. Moreover, if the collection had survived to the early 700s, it would very likely have been incorporated into the library of the Al-Azhar mosque (and later university) in Cairo. This collection has come down to the present intact, but does not include Alexandrine texts.[14]


References:

10. Gibbon, Decline and Fall, ch. 28.
11. from Alfred J. Butler's Arab Conquest of Egypt, cited here.
12. 'Abd al-Latif (1203): "the library which 'Amr ibn al-'As burnt with the permission of 'Umar."
13. Bernard Lewis article, review of the arguments, older article on Amr-ibn-el-Ass, and libraries.
14. Al-Azhar website, [1].




It seems a Christian governor actually set out to destroy the Library, but this is glossed over in favour of fairy tales implicatong the Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab. For the Caliph to have undertaken such an action would have directly contradicted an order by the Prophet (PBUH) to 'seek knowlegde, even unto China'. Why destroy it in Egypt?

More importantly, why would you ignore the more compelling evidence for Theophilus' destruction of the Library?
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by musika man »

[quote="Abdination"]You hate America, and yet you live in it. Get your head out of your ass.[/quote]

^^

who? me? Laughing Laughing i love america better than somalia and if somalis in somalia can come to america, they will say it too. america is the best country.
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Abdination »

Not you, Was referring to the topic starter.
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by #1baller »

[quote="Padishah"]


"It seems a Christian governor actually set out to destroy the Library, but this is glossed over in favour of fairy tales implicatong the Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab. For the Caliph to have undertaken such an action would have directly contradicted an order by the Prophet (PBUH) to 'seek knowlegde, even unto China'. Why destroy it in Egypt?"

Padishah,

First you claimed that a Roman, Julius Caesar unequivocally destroyed the Great Library of Alexandria. I knew your theory was flawed so I provided you with a legitimate article that refuted your absurd claims. It showed that there were two other suspects one being Theophilus, a Christian and a Muslim Caliph Omar.

After being wrong you are now all of a sudden claiming that "Theophilus"was the one who destroyed the Great Library. Confused Are you confused or something? Would you like me to prove you wrong again?


Here take a look at this article:


Theophilus
Again, the legendary story first:

Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, is also the patron saint of arsonists. As Christianity slowly strangled the life out of classical culture in the fourth century it became more and more difficult to be a pagan. There stood in Alexandria the great temple of Serapis called the Serapeum and attached to it was the Great Library of Alexandria where all the wisdom of the ancients was preserved. Now Theophilus knew that as long as this knowledge existed people would be less inclined to believe the bible so he set about destroying the pagan temples. But the Serapeum was a huge structure, high on a mound and beyond the abilities of the raging Christian fanatics to assault. Faced with this edifice, the Patriarch sent word to Rome. There the Emperor Theodosius the Great, who had ordered that paganism be annihilated, gave his permission for the destruction of the Serapeum. Realising they had no chance, the priests and priestesses fled their temple and the mob moved in. The vast structure was razed to it foundations and the scrolls from the library were burnt in huge pyres in the streets of Alexandria.

Theophilus was indeed the Patriarch of Alexandria at the time that the Serapeum was converted into a Christian church although he has never been made a saint! The date for the events recorded is usually given as 391AD when Theodosius was emperor and energetically converting all his subjects to Christianity. The contention made is that there was another library in the Serapeum temple that a Christian mob destroyed during their sacking of the temple. We need to establish if there really was a library there and also if Theophilus destroyed it.

The intervening years
About the library the sources are reasonably silent but this is not a surprise because we know already that we cannot be talking about the Royal Library itself. However, Alexandria remained a centre of scholarship and other libraries existed. The Emperor Claudius set up the eponymous named Claudian to be a centre for the study of history and Hadrian founded a library at the Caesarean temple during his visit. Less reliably, Plutarch informs us that Mark Anthony gave Cleopatra the entire contents - some 200,000 rolls - of the Pergamon library as a gift.

The 12th century Byzantine scholar, John Tzetzes, in his Prolegomena to Aristophanes preserves some details about the catalogue of the poet Callimachus (died after 250BC) who said there were nearly 500,000 scrolls in the Royal Library and another 42,000 odd in the outer or public library. Note that Callimachus is not known to have referred to the Serapeum Library although he is often assumed to be doing so. The fourth century Bishop Epiphanius of Cyprus (died 402AD) in his Weights and Measures (actually a biblical commentary!) says that there were over 50,000 volumes in the 'daughter' library that he places in the Serapeum. Our previous observations about numbers fully apply here even if it seems fair to say that there were many fewer scrolls in the daughter than in the Royal Library. Epiphanius also tells us that by his day the entire Bruchion quarter of Alexandria was laid waste, no doubt due to the actions of Aurelian or Diocletian. There is a detailed report of the acropolis of Alexandria in a Progymnasmata by Aphthonius of Ephesus (died after 400AD) which he presents as an example of how to give a description. He speaks of book repositories open to the public and we can assume this refers to the Serapeum. Unfortunately the date of the description is impossible to determine and nor can we tell if it is an eyewitness account. However, we do have enough evidence in total to assert that there was once a library at the Serapeum even if it is not the same as the 'outer library' attached to the Royal Library.

Despite the continuation of academic activity, Alexandria suffered much in the years up to 391AD. Augustus reduced it, Caracalla massacred many of its citizens over a perceived insult and Aurelian also sacked the city and the palace quarter in which the Museum was situated. Finally, the city was taken with great destruction by Diocletian at the start of the fourth century.

Ammianus Marcellinus - Roman History
In the Roman History, Ammianus waxes lyrical about the Serapeum but he then gets a bit confused and says that the libraries it held were those burnt by Caesar in the Alexandrine War. The point is perhaps vital though because he had visited Alexandria and yet says of the Serapeum "in it have been valuable libraries" in the perfect tense. This was before 391AD when Theophilus and his gang set to work and very strongly suggests there were no books present in the temple at the time of its destruction.

Rufinus Tyrannius - Ecclesiastical History
The earliest description of the sack of the Serapeum was almost certainly one by Sophronius, a Christian scholar, called On the Overthrow of Serapis and now lost. Rufinus (died 410AD) was an orthodox Latin Christian who spent many years of his life in Alexandria. He arrived in 372AD and whether or not he was actually present when the Serapeum was demolished, he was certainly there at around the same time. He rather freely translated Eusebius's History of the Church into Latin and then added his own books X and XI taking the narrative up to his own time. It is in book XI that we find the best source for the events at the Serapeum which he describes in detail. His account largely agrees with the one given above except that he makes no mention of any library or books at all. He seems to regret the passing of the Serapeum but puts the blame squarely on the local pagans for inciting the Christian mob. The only English translation of his work is still very much in copyright so until I have produced another myself the reader will just have to take my word for it.

Eunapius - Lives of the Philosophers
The pagan writer Eunapius of Antioch (died after 400AD) included an account of the sack of the Serapeum in his Life of Antonius who, before he died in 390AD, had prophesied that all the pagan temples in Alexandria would be destroyed (not a desperately surprising contingency at the time). Eunapius wants to show how right he was. As well as being a pagan, Eunapius is vehemently anti-Christian and spares no effort in making Theophilus and his followers look as foolish as possible. His narrative is laced with venom and sarcasm as he describes the sack of the temple as a battle without an enemy. If a great library had been destroyed then Eunapius, the pagan scholar, would surely have mentioned it. He does not.

Socrates Scholasticus, Hermias Sozomen and Theodoret
Socrates (died after 450AD) also wrote a History of the Church that continued on from that of Eusebius. His was more detailed and in Greek rather than Latin. It contains a chapter about the destruction of the Serapeum which acknowledges that the deed was ordered by the Emperor, that the building was demolished and that it was later converted to a church. Again, no mention is made of any books that might have been in the Serapeum or what could have happened to them. His passage about the cross-shaped hieroglyphics found in the temple gives us some idea of how Christianity turned various pagan symbols to its advantage.

The histories of Sozomen (died 443AD) and Theodoret (died after 457AD) cover a similar period. Despite being pleased to report in detail the Serapeum's destruction they also make mention no books at all although Theodoret says that the wooden idols of Serapis were burnt. Both of these histories are heavily dependent on Socrates but do include details from other sources.

Paulus Orosius - History against the Pagans
Orosius (died after 415AD) was a friend of Saint Augustine who wrote a History against the Pagans that was fully intended to paint all non-Christians in a bad light. So as a historian he is useless but when he says something that suggests that his fellow Christians were not whiter than white, that is to say, against the grain of his usual bias, we have to take it seriously. In his aside on the Great Library, he says something of significance which is both an eyewitness detail and suggests that his fellow Christians are in the wrong. He says "…there exist in temples book chests which we ourselves have seen and when these temples were plundered these, we are told, were emptied by our own men in our own time." His statement that there was no other major library in Alexandria at the time of Caesar's expedition is interesting and would seem to count against there being a Serapeum library at that time. However, Orosius is too late a source to carry much weight in this matter.

From Orosius we can deduce that Christians did empty some temples of books but we cannot go much further. We cannot say the books were destroyed as this is not stated nor can we say which temples he is talking about or who was responsible. However, we can be sure he was not talking about the Serapeum as all sources agree it was razed to the ground and the temples Orosius visited are not only still standing but even have their internal furninshings. The most likely explanation is that the books were removed to Christian libraries or sold.

The verdict on Theophilus
It is hard enough to establish beyond doubt that there was a library in the Serapeum at all but if there was, Ammianus makes clear that it was no longer there by the mid-fourth century. This is confirmed by the silence of all the sources, including one that would be keen to report Christian atrocities, for the destruction of the temple in 391AD. Note that this is not an 'argument from silence' because there is no reason at all to expect a mention of books in the Serapeum when it was demolished. An invalid 'argument from silence' is when we claim something that is not mentioned did not happen, even though other evidence suggests it did. There is no positive evidence for the existence of the library and instead near conclusive eye witness evidence against.

The story that Theophilus destroyed a library is clearly a fiction that we can very precisely lay at the door of Edward Gibbon. It is in his monumental Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire that we first find the allegation made. Gibbon seems mainly concerned to clear the Arabs of the responsibility of destroying the library and allows his marked anti-Christian prejudice to cloud his better judgement. His excellent footnotes show he had exactly the same sources as we do but drew the wrong conclusions. The story has recently been popularised by Carl Sagan who includes it in Cosmos. He spices the story up with a role for the murdered philosopher Hypatia, even though there is no evidence connecting her to the library at all.


© James Hannam 2003.
Last revised: 17 August, 2006 .
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Grant »

"Are you idiotic Grant? Of course Somali Bantu's are not originally Somali. I happen to be Somali, therefore I do know who my people are or aren't. Wallahi, this old man is redundant.

You should focus on who will change your diaper in the coming years, than getting into a discussion that you know little about.

Discontinue copying and pasting information from secondary sources."



Alluring,

You have still not caught the linguistic difference between not being Somali (Samale) and not being from Somalia. I suggested that YOU google Somali Bantus since you seemed to think they were enslaved by the Omani Sultanate IN Somalia, and they were not.

There is no copy and paste anywhere in this thread from me.

I assume, since you have moved on to insult, that you realize you lost the argument and perhaps should read a little history ?
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Steeler [Crawler2] »

Look at long as we remember that Islam socks, what else is there to concern ourselves about?
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by gurey25 »

and istballer what source do you have for your claim that khalifa cumar ordered the burning of the library of alexandria?

apart from the anti muslim polemic site you posted from?
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by gurey25 »

[quote]How can that be when Islam and Muslims were the first religious denomination to start by killing unbelievers? In fact, the Christians didn't start killing people until 300 years after Islam and Muslims started their vile killing spree which by the way is still happening in the present day

here see for yourself.....

[/quote]

Laughing
The first religous denomination to start killing unbelievers?
you really are a moron arnt you, i thought you were smarter than that.

dont worry too much, i know you have an extreme sense of fear and loathing for islam like most apostates do, dont worry nobody will bother to kill you, just practice a bit of discretion thats all.

just some friendly advice
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by #1baller »

[quote="gurey25"]and istballer what source do you have for your claim that khalifa cumar ordered the burning of the library of alexandria?

apart from the anti muslim polemic site you posted from?[/quote]

Ahhh......the proverbial response when Muslims lose an argument. The Christians are out to get us or the proof of the argument was written by an anti-muslim polemic site. Laughing

Aren't you people tired of using the same excuse all the time? I mean at least come up with a better defence for godsakes Confused
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by #1baller »

[quote="gurey25"]

Laughing
"The first religous denomination to start killing unbelievers?
you really are a moron arnt you, i thought you were smarter than that."

No... the morons are you dumb fockers killing in the name of Allah and still doing so in the 21st century! Shocked

"dont worry too much, i know you have an extreme sense of fear and loathing for islam like most apostates do, dont worry nobody will bother to kill you, just practice a bit of discretion thats all."

I don't worry bout anything bra. You see I'm still making money and living a good life whether or not you focking bastards continue to kill over ignorance. Cool
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by PragmaticGal »

[quote="musika man"]destruction of christianity, destruction of muslims, what a fake debate coming from somalis who destroyed each other in this day and age.[/quote]

I like you.
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Re: I hate America and their fake democracy

Post by Gladiator= »

#baller, read 'The Middle East: 2000 Years of History from the Rise of Christianity to the Present Day' by Bernard Lewis, a professor of Standford. He stated that Caliph Omar's reign, the world witnessed the most democratic values. Omar granted the poeple of Jerusalem peace and protection for their churches, crosses, property, libraries and all centers of learning.

You can't say that this professor from Standford is biased about Omar.
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