Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[I haven't made any allegations. I asked you what you believe. There is little point in continuing this discussion if you won't answer that.]
Grant, you didn't ask me what I believe; you asked me my opinion on a religious obligation ordained by Allah. You have asked me if I can second-guess Allah's laws or orders. That's not how it works with Muslims; Muslims aren't like Christians, atheists, etc. A religious obligation ordained by Allah isn't like a civilian obligation ordained by humans. A Muslim can have an opinion on a civilian obligation ordained by humans. A Muslim can only abide by a religious obligation ordained by Allah; no opinion.
Your questions were allegations, since you couldn't prove what both are based on. Are your questions based on the understanding of those who adhere to Islam, or are they based on the understanding of non-Muslims?
Grant, you didn't ask me what I believe; you asked me my opinion on a religious obligation ordained by Allah. You have asked me if I can second-guess Allah's laws or orders. That's not how it works with Muslims; Muslims aren't like Christians, atheists, etc. A religious obligation ordained by Allah isn't like a civilian obligation ordained by humans. A Muslim can have an opinion on a civilian obligation ordained by humans. A Muslim can only abide by a religious obligation ordained by Allah; no opinion.
Your questions were allegations, since you couldn't prove what both are based on. Are your questions based on the understanding of those who adhere to Islam, or are they based on the understanding of non-Muslims?
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
Arabman,
My questions are based on the understanding of a non-Muslim. I use "personal opinion" synonymously with "belief", but let's see if we can work around the semantic issues.
There are four mandhabs. Do you follow any of them, or do you believe the teachings of Abdul Wahab are superior?
Can you please give me the religious justification for executing rape victims if they are unable to find four male Muslim witnesses willing to testify that the rape was involuntary ? Is there any variation here among the mandhabs or between Shia and Sunni ? Are there no Muslims opposed to this practice?
My questions are based on the understanding of a non-Muslim. I use "personal opinion" synonymously with "belief", but let's see if we can work around the semantic issues.
There are four mandhabs. Do you follow any of them, or do you believe the teachings of Abdul Wahab are superior?
Can you please give me the religious justification for executing rape victims if they are unable to find four male Muslim witnesses willing to testify that the rape was involuntary ? Is there any variation here among the mandhabs or between Shia and Sunni ? Are there no Muslims opposed to this practice?
Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[There are four mandhabs. Do you follow any of them, or do you believe the teachings of Abdul Wahab are superior?]
The vast majority of Somalis follow the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence (madhab). Many do not know they follow that school. The madhab they follow manifests in how they deal with situations, circumstances, each other, etc. There's no self-identification, logos, identity cards, etc with a school of jurisprudence. Most Somalis stay away from a dog; they don't go near it. The Shafi'i school of jurisprudence teaches a dog's mouth, saliva and body are impure. One of the other school of jurisprudence teaches a dog's mouth and saliva are impure, not its body. That's an example of how the four school of jurisprudence differ; minor differences.
Abdul Wahab wasn't a founder of a school of jurisprudence, so he cannot be compared to the four founders of school of jurisprudence. The four school of jurisprudence aren't superior or inferior to each other. Abdul Wahab was a pious scholar who called the people at the time to come back to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, and abandon bida' (innovation, reformation) and shirk (idolatry).
[Can you please give me the religious justification for executing rape victims if they are unable to find four male Muslim witnesses willing to testify that the rape was involuntary ? Is there any variation here among the mandhabs or between Shia and Sunni ? Are there no Muslims opposed to this practice?]
As you have admitted, your questions are based on a personal understanding of a non-Muslim, not on the understanding of Muslims. If no witnesses can be found, you alleged, an involuntary rape would result in the execution of the victim. You alleged that's a religious obligation ordained by Allah. You have failed to produce proof from the Quran to support your allegation. I was expecting you would at least copy/paste one of your anti-Islam links to support your allegations. Grant, it's clear it's you who's playing with semantics. Let me just say; no Muslim would oppose or condemn a religious obligation ordained by Allah. Also, it's impossible for Muslims to change, modify or amend a religious obligation ordained by Allah.
The vast majority of Somalis follow the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence (madhab). Many do not know they follow that school. The madhab they follow manifests in how they deal with situations, circumstances, each other, etc. There's no self-identification, logos, identity cards, etc with a school of jurisprudence. Most Somalis stay away from a dog; they don't go near it. The Shafi'i school of jurisprudence teaches a dog's mouth, saliva and body are impure. One of the other school of jurisprudence teaches a dog's mouth and saliva are impure, not its body. That's an example of how the four school of jurisprudence differ; minor differences.
Abdul Wahab wasn't a founder of a school of jurisprudence, so he cannot be compared to the four founders of school of jurisprudence. The four school of jurisprudence aren't superior or inferior to each other. Abdul Wahab was a pious scholar who called the people at the time to come back to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, and abandon bida' (innovation, reformation) and shirk (idolatry).
[Can you please give me the religious justification for executing rape victims if they are unable to find four male Muslim witnesses willing to testify that the rape was involuntary ? Is there any variation here among the mandhabs or between Shia and Sunni ? Are there no Muslims opposed to this practice?]
As you have admitted, your questions are based on a personal understanding of a non-Muslim, not on the understanding of Muslims. If no witnesses can be found, you alleged, an involuntary rape would result in the execution of the victim. You alleged that's a religious obligation ordained by Allah. You have failed to produce proof from the Quran to support your allegation. I was expecting you would at least copy/paste one of your anti-Islam links to support your allegations. Grant, it's clear it's you who's playing with semantics. Let me just say; no Muslim would oppose or condemn a religious obligation ordained by Allah. Also, it's impossible for Muslims to change, modify or amend a religious obligation ordained by Allah.
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
Arabman,
My reference for rape was to the hudood laws in Pakistan which were advertised as the implementation of Sharica law. I was not aware until this past hour either that the laws had been changed or that they were found to be contradictory to Quranic traditions, but here is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_ordinance
"The Hudood Ordinance (Urdu: ???? ????? ) was a law in Pakistan, that was abolished in 2006. It has been replaced by the Women's Protection Bill.
Originally, the Hudood Law was ostensibly intended to implement Muslim Shari'a law, which enforces punishments mentioned in the Quran and sunnah for a number of crimes, including extra-marital sex (zina[1]), the drinking of alcohol, and theft. It was enacted in 1979 as part of then military ruler Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization process.
The ordinance is most criticized for making it exceptionally difficult and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape is required to provide four adult male witnesses of "the act of penetration", and if the accused man is Muslim, the witnesses must be Muslims themselves. Failure to prove rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for the accusing an innocent man of adultery, which does not require such strong evidence.[2]"
I see this as a very good thing if it is true.
-----------------------------------------
I understand where you are coming from, which does not make me happy.
You are aware that Mormons believe in continuing revelation? They did away with polygamy in 1881 and granted the priesthood to the sons of Ham in 1965.
I had hoped to see the end of slavery in my lifetime.
My reference for rape was to the hudood laws in Pakistan which were advertised as the implementation of Sharica law. I was not aware until this past hour either that the laws had been changed or that they were found to be contradictory to Quranic traditions, but here is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_ordinance
"The Hudood Ordinance (Urdu: ???? ????? ) was a law in Pakistan, that was abolished in 2006. It has been replaced by the Women's Protection Bill.
Originally, the Hudood Law was ostensibly intended to implement Muslim Shari'a law, which enforces punishments mentioned in the Quran and sunnah for a number of crimes, including extra-marital sex (zina[1]), the drinking of alcohol, and theft. It was enacted in 1979 as part of then military ruler Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization process.
The ordinance is most criticized for making it exceptionally difficult and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape is required to provide four adult male witnesses of "the act of penetration", and if the accused man is Muslim, the witnesses must be Muslims themselves. Failure to prove rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for the accusing an innocent man of adultery, which does not require such strong evidence.[2]"
I see this as a very good thing if it is true.
-----------------------------------------
I understand where you are coming from, which does not make me happy.
You are aware that Mormons believe in continuing revelation? They did away with polygamy in 1881 and granted the priesthood to the sons of Ham in 1965.
I had hoped to see the end of slavery in my lifetime.
Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[The ordinance is most criticized for making it exceptionally difficult and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape is required to provide four adult male witnesses of "the act of penetration", and if the accused man is Muslim, the witnesses must be Muslims themselves. Failure to prove rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for the accusing an innocent man of adultery, which does not require such strong evidence.]
I have never heard of or read about a Pakistani accuser who was executed for failing to prove rape or making a false accusation; if you know of an execution that took effect, let me know.
[You are aware that Mormons believe in continuing revelation? They did away with polygamy in 1881 and granted the priesthood to the sons of Ham in 1965.]
Islam will never evolve like Mormonism or other Christian sects or denominations. It's possible that at some time in the future, civilian laws or ordinances allowing polygamy could be enacted. As a result, Mormonism could re-introduce polygamy.
I have never heard of or read about a Pakistani accuser who was executed for failing to prove rape or making a false accusation; if you know of an execution that took effect, let me know.
[You are aware that Mormons believe in continuing revelation? They did away with polygamy in 1881 and granted the priesthood to the sons of Ham in 1965.]
Islam will never evolve like Mormonism or other Christian sects or denominations. It's possible that at some time in the future, civilian laws or ordinances allowing polygamy could be enacted. As a result, Mormonism could re-introduce polygamy.
- Navy9
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
didnt this guy leave somnet?
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
The four madhabs are considered to be equal in their interpretations, yet there is no evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah to support this. Where does this idea come from anyway?
Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[The four madhabs are considered to be equal in their interpretations, yet there is no evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah to support this. Where does this idea come from anyway?]
The question isn't logical. Perhaps you might want to rephrase it.
The question isn't logical. Perhaps you might want to rephrase it.
Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
^ indeed saxib, Pragmatic might wanna rephrase that. I think she was in a hurry or something. Her question didn't make sense.
Navy9
Why? people come and go as usual.
Navy9
Why? people come and go as usual.
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
Will someone please explain the illogic of Pragmatic Girl's question to this poor, struggling non-Muslim?
From the ouside, the madhabs look like schools of interpretation, as do the teachings of Abdul Wahab. I don't find it possible to say that he only called for a return to the message of the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. How for instance do you justify his removal of Arabia from the control of the Ottoman Caliph or the legitimization of the kingship within an Islamic state?
I am excited about the criticism that brought about the abolishment of the hudood laws and the apparent establishment of laws with the exact opposite effect. The fact that these laws were also found to be non-Quranic and non-Hadithic absolutely blows my mind. Does it not bother anyone that these laws were implemented in the name of Shariica ?
From the ouside, the madhabs look like schools of interpretation, as do the teachings of Abdul Wahab. I don't find it possible to say that he only called for a return to the message of the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. How for instance do you justify his removal of Arabia from the control of the Ottoman Caliph or the legitimization of the kingship within an Islamic state?
I am excited about the criticism that brought about the abolishment of the hudood laws and the apparent establishment of laws with the exact opposite effect. The fact that these laws were also found to be non-Quranic and non-Hadithic absolutely blows my mind. Does it not bother anyone that these laws were implemented in the name of Shariica ?
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?


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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
Welcome back br. Arabman!
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[quote="*Arabman
I have never heard of or read about a Pakistani accuser who was executed for failing to prove rape or making a false accusation; if you know of an execution that took effect, let me know. quote]
As it turns out, the state never had to go to the expense of an execution. The matter was dealt with by the institution of karo-kari or honour killing. It was an internal affair the family had to deal with themselves.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999
The article is long so I will not quote it here. One estimate I read was two karo-kari a day in Pakistan. Musharraf made the practice illegal in 2005, but now we shall see.
I have never heard of or read about a Pakistani accuser who was executed for failing to prove rape or making a false accusation; if you know of an execution that took effect, let me know. quote]
As it turns out, the state never had to go to the expense of an execution. The matter was dealt with by the institution of karo-kari or honour killing. It was an internal affair the family had to deal with themselves.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engASA330181999
The article is long so I will not quote it here. One estimate I read was two karo-kari a day in Pakistan. Musharraf made the practice illegal in 2005, but now we shall see.
Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
[From the ouside, the madhabs look like schools of interpretation, as do the teachings of Abdul Wahab. I don't find it possible to say that he only called for a return to the message of the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. How for instance do you justify his removal of Arabia from the control of the Ottoman Caliph or the legitimization of the kingship within an Islamic state?]
Grant, it's your understanding that Abdul Wahab was a founder of a school of jurisprudence. The understanding of those who adhere to Islam differs from yours. Abdul Wahab called Muslims at the time to abandon visiting the graves or tombs of awliya. Of the four founders of the schools of jurisprudence, none taught (or practiced) visiting the graves or tombs of awliya is OK. The four founders of the schools of jurisprudence taught (based on the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah) there is no intermediary between Allah and His creatures. They also taught no human is better than the other, save on the degree of taqwa. Abdul Wahab was simply reminding Muslims at the time of the teachings of the four founders of the schools of jurisprudence.
At times you paint yourself as someone who knows little about Islam, yet you know about Abdul Wahab's removal of Arabia from the control of the Ottoman Caliph or the legitimization of the kingship within an Islamic state. That demonstrates a degree of knowledge. I and many Muslims aren't obsessed with Abdul Wahab. Abdul Wahab, to us, was a pious scholar who reminded Muslims in his time of the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah.
[I am excited about the criticism that brought about the abolishment of the hudood laws and the apparent establishment of laws with the exact opposite effect. The fact that these laws were also found to be non-Quranic and non-Hadithic absolutely blows my mind. Does it not bother anyone that these laws were implemented in the name of Shariica ?]
Your understanding now is, the hudood laws weren't based on the Quran and Hadith. Yet, you have previously alleged it were based on a religious obligation ordained by God. Is it possible that most of your understanding of Islam is based on allegations? You wonder if it bothers us that the hudood laws were implemented in the name of Shariica, eventhough it weren't based on Shariica; why should it bother us?
[As it turns out, the state never had to go to the expense of an execution. The matter was dealt with by the institution of karo-kari or honour killing. It was an internal affair the family had to deal with themselves.]
The more I read, the more I sense your degree of knowledge in Islam, albeit knowledge based on anti-Islam. Never heard of karo-kari. Is it based on a religious obligation ordained by God?
P.S. If you have time, I invite you to read Abdul Wahab's book titled Kitab at-Tauhid (The Book of the Unity of God). It would be interesting to read your review of the book.
http://islamtomorrow.com/books/book_of_ ... awheed.pdf
Koronto91, mahadsanid.
Grant, it's your understanding that Abdul Wahab was a founder of a school of jurisprudence. The understanding of those who adhere to Islam differs from yours. Abdul Wahab called Muslims at the time to abandon visiting the graves or tombs of awliya. Of the four founders of the schools of jurisprudence, none taught (or practiced) visiting the graves or tombs of awliya is OK. The four founders of the schools of jurisprudence taught (based on the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah) there is no intermediary between Allah and His creatures. They also taught no human is better than the other, save on the degree of taqwa. Abdul Wahab was simply reminding Muslims at the time of the teachings of the four founders of the schools of jurisprudence.
At times you paint yourself as someone who knows little about Islam, yet you know about Abdul Wahab's removal of Arabia from the control of the Ottoman Caliph or the legitimization of the kingship within an Islamic state. That demonstrates a degree of knowledge. I and many Muslims aren't obsessed with Abdul Wahab. Abdul Wahab, to us, was a pious scholar who reminded Muslims in his time of the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah.
[I am excited about the criticism that brought about the abolishment of the hudood laws and the apparent establishment of laws with the exact opposite effect. The fact that these laws were also found to be non-Quranic and non-Hadithic absolutely blows my mind. Does it not bother anyone that these laws were implemented in the name of Shariica ?]
Your understanding now is, the hudood laws weren't based on the Quran and Hadith. Yet, you have previously alleged it were based on a religious obligation ordained by God. Is it possible that most of your understanding of Islam is based on allegations? You wonder if it bothers us that the hudood laws were implemented in the name of Shariica, eventhough it weren't based on Shariica; why should it bother us?
[As it turns out, the state never had to go to the expense of an execution. The matter was dealt with by the institution of karo-kari or honour killing. It was an internal affair the family had to deal with themselves.]
The more I read, the more I sense your degree of knowledge in Islam, albeit knowledge based on anti-Islam. Never heard of karo-kari. Is it based on a religious obligation ordained by God?
P.S. If you have time, I invite you to read Abdul Wahab's book titled Kitab at-Tauhid (The Book of the Unity of God). It would be interesting to read your review of the book.
http://islamtomorrow.com/books/book_of_ ... awheed.pdf
Koronto91, mahadsanid.
- michael_ital
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Re: Are you a Wahabbi, Arabman?
"The more I read, the more I sense your degree of knowledge in Islam, albeit knowledge based on anti-Islam."
Astute observation. I've been seeing it the same way, though unable to articulate into the proper words.
Astute observation. I've been seeing it the same way, though unable to articulate into the proper words.
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