The true Black Hawk Down: To MAD MAC

Mochatanya · Post by **Mochatanya** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:04 pm

[quote="Gogarad"][quote="Dhaga Bacayl"]Guys, IÃ¢Â€Â™m talking to the non-Somalis hereÃ¢Â€Â¦

What is your obsession of Somalia and Somalis all together?

Soldiers do one thing well. TheyÃ¢Â€Â™re paid to shoot and kill and that is what you guys did in Somalia back in 93.. DonÃ¢Â€Â™t you guys come here and act like saints. You insulting our intelligence here. Stop all this BS of Ã¢Â€Âœwe were helping the poorÃ¢Â€Â. The whole fuccking operation was politically and economically motivated. Every one knows that. Ask the oil hungry Bush family and they will tell you whuz up.

Obviously, you guys are here to chit chat with our Somali girl so why not just do that and leave Somali politics and personal issues to Somalis. God..that is what is wrong with this fuccking world these days...[/quote]

Very well said couz..

Its one thing if these bastards are here to chit chat or what not, but when they pretend they know better then actual Somalis is another..which is what pisses most of us off..But wtf is wrong with this picture..a pale white bastard who was a product of a one night stand comes here and talks about Aideed or how Somalis should run their country.. Fuccking idiots..

Wallahi the white man NEVER cease 2 amaze me..From a Muslim wanna be trying to get in Somali girls pants, to a soldier who can't get over how the Hawiye screwed him and his colleagues & bend them back words..to a Spanish fool who is talking out of his arse day in and day out..Jesus Christ, wtf is this place turning to??[/quote]

You said it sis .. I'm sick and tired of these patronising bastards pretending they give a damn about Somalis..

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:31 am

OK let's clear a few things up here:

a. The US and UN went into Somalia because of the famine. Not because of some fabulous, untapped natural resources.
b. The SNA attacked the UN. This is not disputable.
c. The UN/US was fighting the SNA and the Haber Gedir. Not the "Somalis".
d. Aideed's "great victory over the Americans" wasn't a victory at all. To wit:
-Haber Gedir casualties were extremely high.
-The individuals the US went to capture were captured. The mission was accomplished.
-Haber Gedir clan leadership forced Aideed to declare a unilateral ceasefire on 9 October. Do you think Aideed did this because he was a man of peace? He did it because he had to.

It was a POLITICAL defeat for the US. One which we are still paying for. The Clinton administration had failed to inform the American people that we were engaged in a small brushfire war. When one night suddenly 18 (19 if we count SGT Houston who died of his wounds three days latter and 20 if we count the Malaysian APC driver killed when an RPG struck his vehicle) troops were killed, it was an ugly surprise.

But a political defeat for the US did not amount to a political victory for Aideed, and certainly not for Somalia. What was the outcome? There never was a successful reconcialiation process. Somalia never did achieve national unity. The US pulled out and the UN could not succeded without US participation. Not even three years latter Aideed was dead, a victim of his own aggression.

Just for once, here on Somalinet, would it be possible for people to discuss the facts without emotion and make honest appraisals of what happened? I know it's a reach, but let's give it a shot.

biiqaaye · Post by **biiqaaye** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:41 am

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:48 am

Beek
They did not, I say again not, try and shut down the radio station. How is it that the Pakis were ambushed on 21 October road, more than 3 kilometers from the radio station, and yet it was a spontaneous uprising. That is a lie which Osman Atto made clear to Walter Clarke the morning the fighting was taking place.

But even were it true, shutting down a radio station is not, I say again not, a legitimate causus belli.

biiqaaye · Post by **biiqaaye** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:58 am

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:05 am

Beek
No you are not. First of all, the Haber Gedir weren't the majority. Secondly, Aideed and the SNA agreed to submit to Chapter 7 dictates of the UN charter when they agreed to UN entry into Somalia. Thirdly, the SNA was not a legal, legitimate political body authorized to declare war. The SNA had no legal recourse to conduct combat operations against a UN force. Fourthly, the Radio Station nonsense was BS, although Aideed was using it to incite the people against the UN.

All of your argument is based on this fallacious assumption, which I can assure you is not based in fact. The Pakistani troops were there to inspect AWSS site number 1. Nothing more, nothing less. There was no intent to shut down the radio station. The attack on the station came in the retaliatory attacks directed against the SNA on 12 June, when the AWSS were also destroyed.

Your position fails to explain why the UN And US forces were able to maintain widespread support from the non-Haber Gedir population (that is the majority) within the city of Mogadischu.

Mowhawk · Post by **Mowhawk** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:30 am

double post

Mowhawk · Post by **Mowhawk** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:31 am

Although this is a mini repeat discussion of a similar earlier debate, let me say that it was a great topic, and I enjoyed it and commend all those who contributed positively on this topic, and please spare me naming names because most of you did contribute positively from your different positions.

However, let me ask you this serious question.

I have been to Somalia last year and NOTHING has prepared for me to the extent of the suffering of Somali people. When you talk to them about the politics of the country, and you will be guaranteed to hear that they will welcome any forces that will rid of them those who oppress them and condemn them to such a life. When I mentioned to them does that include the return of the Americans, most replied that they will welcome anyone. My question is if the Americans succeeded restoring peace and a government in Somalia, will you have welcomed them like those suffering Somalis? Myself, as a man who has no faith in American politics, let me be frank with you and say that I learned from that trip that it is easy to judge from the comforts of the western world, but according to most Somalis in Somalia that I talked to including those who were against the Americans, they now regret it and believe Somalia has lost a great opportunity.

Will you welcome the Americans back to Somalia to clean up the warlords, and save the lives of many Somalis on condition they will leave us alone?

If you want to answer or not, please keep the discussion flowing positively.

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:54 am

Mohawk
If I could add what I believe is relevent to your point. The United States government right now is maintaining a small Task Force in Djibouti, which most here are probably aware of. This Task Force was established as a part of the global war on terror. The thrust of its mission is to assist the poverty stricken in the Horn, thus undermining extremist recruiting efforts. It is in the US interest, in light of the war on terror, for Somalia to establish a national government with which it can then work to root out extremists. In my mind this means there is a clear parrallel between the interests of the Somali people (establishment of a national government, and end to feudalism) and the interests of the USG. To date, this small Task Force has not operated in Somalia. However, hopefully, we will see LIMITED US engagement in Somalia to conduct humanitarian projects and support political reconcilliation. I must add, however, that such engagement is far from certain, and if it indeed happens, the scale will be very small. Nothing like what we saw in the early 90s.

In short, outside assistance in limited quantities may help push a Somali process along, but it is going to have to be a Somali process. The political will does not exist either in the US or within the corridors of the UN for massive engagement in Somalia.

biiqaaye · Post by **biiqaaye** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:55 am

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:06 am

Beek
Well you are likely to get your wish. Because right now the international community is happy to let Somalia stew. And if a famine really does hit, it's big trouble, because the cavalry probably won't be coming over the hill this time. Which means a million dead Somalis.

biiqaaye · Post by **biiqaaye** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:12 am

Steeler [Crawler2] · Post by **Steeler [Crawler2]** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:17 am

I wouldn't say "no one". Clearly Mohawk has articulated that he met a number of people who do want help. But I doubt much, if any, help is going to be forthcoming.

biiqaaye · Post by **biiqaaye** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 am

Mowhawk · Post by **Mowhawk** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:23 am

[quote="biiqaaye"]hell no.....i aint gonna welcome no American, no Arab, no Afrikan...no body my friend. i'd rather see somalis kill each other instead of some foreigner from outside to come and rape our women and gives order in our own country. NO WAY!!![/quote]

biiqaaye

I wish the last two groups will be interested in intervening in Somalia, and believe me unlike you, most Somalis who are suffering expressed to me such sentiments and hoped any army to rescue them. When was the last time you have been to Somalia? For your info, I visited few orphanages in Mogadiscio and many of the babies there were born out of rape, and they have to turn away many others, imagine what happens to those kids. It is funny and ironic then that you consider that only foreigners are rapists.

Mad Mac

It is a public knowledge about your task force in Jibouti, but do you think legitimizing warlords as statesmen is a good positive mutual objective of the Americans and the Somali public? That is not reconciliation but is from your own perception of my enemy's enemy is my friend and must be solved that way. The Somali people see those warlords as their main enemies, while you see them as friends who unites you for being against "extremists" and that alone merits them to be America's mates. I think it is a dead-wrong approach/path to reconciliation.