Organ Theft

[gurey25]

mate i dont think islam has any objection to organ donation..
we are not seventh day adventists or jehovah witnesses...

alxamdulilah..


if you care about the young lass, i suggest you go to karachi , pakistan ASAP.
it will take about a month, but you will get a matching organ at an affordable price..

i might have to dig up the contact details but i know of a certain high class hospital that specializes in this..
the owner is a general..

[WiglessBidaar]

LOL @ karachi

Never met an anarchist who backed a market based solution to the paucity of organ donors.

Your theology is curious. In my time as a hot headed Salafi over what must be now a hundred years ago, the worshippers of Muhammad Abdul Wahab stood immovably against organ transplants. The web is plastered with their fulminations against the medical practice. A Muslim's body is the amaana of God not to be tampered with in life or death.

Cowboy up to them waraa.

[WiglessBidaar]

I wonder if the shortage of organ donors might not be resolved by monetising the system.

Any thoughts?

[gurey25]

no my theology is normal no nonsense and striaghtforward.

i fear for your soul, you seem to equate islam with a certain group of people,
in this case salafis, when it is deeper and richer and more diverse.

seriously if you are interested in your friends well being , go to egypt or pakistan.
i have a family member that did it in pakistan, and it worked out well...

[WiglessBidaar]

The snag is that this particular case is not a one off. Thousands perish annually lingering on the transplant list because the number of needy patients far outstrips the pool of donors. This could be easily resolved if organs could be harvested from the dead, but this contravenes medical ethics. Gotta have consent. Why? A dead man does not need his liver. He needs a coffin. Or so they tell me, but I can't vouch for its truth.

Agreed that Islam is diverse. That's why I maintain that not all Muslims are cool with organ transplants. There is no such thing as a doctrinally unified canon of Islam. There is a multiplicity of Islams often at variance with other.

Monetising the system seems to my eye the most sound policy. For how much would you part with your kidney? A bowel of rice I think will do.

From a purely ethical consideration, what justifiable reason is there for not performing the transplant operation if consent cannot be secured except the cowardly fear of losing one's job? Is a man's career of a greater import than saving a life?

[gurey25]

this opens up a veritable can of worms..
if you monetize it, you will facilitate the supply..
sounds good but you cannot control it..

what will happen is when a vast new market opens up, someone will try to supply the market, legally or illegally.

whats to stop soneone hacking hospital databases and raiding confidential information..
this allows the targetting of suitable donars that can then be kidnapped and made to donate by force..

[gurey25]

i see no religious argument..
right or wrong is easier to understand than you think...

you do not require a fatwa from your local mullah for day to day decision.

[WiglessBidaar]

this opens up a veritable can of worms..
if you monetize it, you will facilitate the supply..
sounds good but you cannot control it..

what will happen is when a vast new market opens up, someone will try to supply the market, legally or illegally.

whats to stop soneone hacking hospital databases and raiding confidential information..
this allows the targetting of suitable donars that can then be kidnapped and made to donate by force..

Are you gonna pull a Julian Assange? Steady, you will be trailed by young Swedish babes who claim you practice the strongarm theory of copulation.

For a transplant operation to get the greenlight organs may only be lawfully extracted by surgeons in the operating theatre. You can't haul back a kidney dripping with blood from the backwaters of Xamar after butchering a hated clan.

[WiglessBidaar]

i see no religious argument..
right or wrong is easier to understand than you think...

you do not require a fatwa from your local mullah for day to day decision.

The wadaad lot inform me that Islam is a complete way of life. Governs everything from what incantations to make before you step into the pub to what you say when exiting. Is this your anarchist speaking or your Muslim?

Is your view that a physician who puts his career ahead of a life saving operation that is forbidden by law an ethical man or not?

[gurey25]

@julian assange , dont blame the guy he is just a poor nerd..
very vulnerable to that stuff..

me on the other hand i know the game..
my soldier always goes into battle with his helmet and i video everything..

any funny business and the court will be invited to review my performance.

and this issue is not that simple..

[WiglessBidaar]

LOL @ performance.

Home made snuff movies are for those itching to be exposed. I can tell you what happened to the tape of the night I slipped a tongue between a lovely's thighs but you won't believe me.

On the medical issue, I think letting die to advance one's career is a moral obscenity. The ancient moral distinction between killing and letting die is, like teenage celibacy, an illusion. A bold assertion no doubt but one upheld by the machinery of reason.

A thought experiment: A man stands to gain a lot of gold from the death of his elderly mother. As she is bathing one fateful day she slips and knocks her head against the bathtub railing instantly scattering her mind and begins to slowly drown. Her son, alerted by the loud thud, rushes upstairs to find his unconscious mother drowning. Recalling the considerable sum of wealth he stands to inherit the day the old hag becomes an angel, he stands over her gargling body and lets her die.

Now change the details a tad. Instead of standing idly by, imagine the son rushes in and, watching the old woman straining to get up on her feet after regaining consciousness, holds her down underwater till mummy joins the Choir Invisible.

Is the first scenario materially different from the second? There is a legal distinction between murder and callous indifference true enough, but a moral one?

[gurey25]

like my earlier post right and wrong is not some mysterious unidentifiable thing..
you are born with the ability to discern right or wrong..

in this case who cares about the legal implications, the moral ones count...

now in the case of the doctor, as i told you this is not cut and dry.
to save the patient he will have to transgress the rights of another one.

taking an organ of an unsuspecting patient to save the live of another without his permission is a form of aggression.

the question is what will god think of this?


i believe that god is the most merciful and compassionate, sees all and knows all including the intentions and motives of the doctor.

if he really feels the need to do it, he should, but he should remember the other patient whose organ was stolen will not be understanding or merciful..

and if he retaliates and commits harm to the doctor , god will also be merciful to him..
as his rights were transgressed..

so basically its up to the doctor..

[WiglessBidaar]

To say that we have competing moral claims here is to traffic in tautology. All ethics revolves around competing interests from abortion to euthanasia to organ donation. If there is no opposing interests, a thing is not a moral dilemma.

Do you accept my thesis that the distinction between killing and letting die, in purely moral terms, is illusory?

[WiglessBidaar]

Double post.

[gurey25]

To say that we have competing moral claims here is to traffic in tautology. All ethics revolves around competing interests from abortion to euthanasia to organ donation. If there is no opposing interests, a thing is not a moral dilemma.

Do you accept my thesis that the distinction between killing and letting die, in purely moral terms, is illusory?

i see were you are going with this..
you could also make the same case for this scenario..

You have a loved one that needs an expensive operation that you cannot afford to pay for, nor can they .
By not doing anything you are saying that it would be morally the same as killing them.

do you also make the case for robbing a bank and in the process killing others, or committing multiple armed robberies or even smuggle hard drugs like coke, heroin and amphetamines to fund the operation?