Debating tribalism; seriously.

[samatar133]

Anyone who tries to diferentiate between qabiil and qabyaalad is just not serious. It is natural and innate for one to be baised towards the group one believes to belong to against other groups. Qabiil is form of grouping. The arguement that prosperity will reduce the practice of tribalism is not a strong argument, it might however make the idividual economically less dependent to his tribe and hense slightly less likely to practice tribalism. In the somali context i believe marka xoolo dhaqatonimada laga tago ee qabiilka meesha ama dhulka cayiman ee la yaqaan dagan meesha ay ka baxdo, mudo dabadeed waa suurto gal in hab fikirka qabyaaladu ay maxkaxda soomalida ka tirtiranto si ayaar ayaar ah ama ugu yaraan ay aad u daciifto. One good solution, i believe, is government introducing policies encouraging urbanisation. The more urbanized people the less likely they are to practice qabyaalad and much more less likely they are to practice it in a violent way. Implimentation of good institutions that encourage justice and equality also help reduce tribalism.
All in all, implimentation of good isntitutions coubled with Land reform policies and increased prosperity is the answer for Somali tribalism.

[Estarix]

Sahan re-read my previous comment as i edited it.

[eliteSomali]

How are we to establish one somaliwayn that represents each and everyone if we're all different qabiils, some coming from arabia and some from other parts of Africa? Somalia can't be somalia if the concept of qabiil is given a place in our society because it carries too much divisions and if we're so different, it's useless trying to formulate one somalia because it's never going to work. Either we were never related to begin with and all of us have migrated to the land and thus will forever remain dis-unified or we can try the notion of qabiil out of the window and stick to being Somali alone with nothing above it and nothing below it. Like someone mentioned nationalism and qabiil can never go hand in hand because you'll at some point in life, put the interest of your qabiil over the interest of the whole country.

[LaY-D_LicK]

How are we to establish one somaliwayn that represents each and everyone if we're all different qabiils, some coming from arabia and some from other parts of Africa? Somalia can't be somalia if the concept of qabiil is given a place in our society because it carries too much divisions and if we're so different, it's useless trying to formulate one somalia because it's never going to work. Either we were never related to begin with and all of us have migrated to the land and thus will forever remain dis-unified or we can try the notion of qabiil out of the window and stick to being Somali alone with nothing above it and nothing below it. Like someone mentioned nationalism and qabiil can never go hand in hand because you'll at some point in life, put the interest of your qabiil over the interest of the whole country.

Interesting you mention that Back in the 1960 There was a concept of The Greater Somali Republic ...

Were there would be a unification of all somali nationals under the umbrella of one governing state ...

That concept although appealing on a idealistic level ...

However realistically that dream was destroyed due to qabiil qabyaalaad etc etc watever you want to call it ...

We are here today in this predicament which ever side we may have decided to take ...

and those of us that were fortunate enough to have not been effected can see the argument behind each case ...

Its what the Colonizers called divide and Concur ...

I dont want to blame a white boogey for our problem as Somalies ...

We need to take value off the qabiil and put it back on that Human somali being ...

I think whats very profound is this issue is that it was raised in the Last sermon of the Prophet Muhammad saw ...

O’ People! Listen to my words, for I do not know whether we shall ever
meet again and perform Hajj after this year. O’ Ye people! Allah says, O’
people We created you from one male and one female and made you into
tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight
of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most
God-fearing. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a
non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black
over the white except in God-conciousness.

The only superiority you have over one another is in good deeds ...

Hmm ....

[eliteSomali]

How are we to establish one somaliwayn that represents each and everyone if we're all different qabiils, some coming from arabia and some from other parts of Africa? Somalia can't be somalia if the concept of qabiil is given a place in our society because it carries too much divisions and if we're so different, it's useless trying to formulate one somalia because it's never going to work. Either we were never related to begin with and all of us have migrated to the land and thus will forever remain dis-unified or we can try the notion of qabiil out of the window and stick to being Somali alone with nothing above it and nothing below it. Like someone mentioned nationalism and qabiil can never go hand in hand because you'll at some point in life, put the interest of your qabiil over the interest of the whole country.

Interesting you mention that Back in the 1960 There was a concept of The Greater Somali Republic ...

Were there would be a unification of all somali nationals under the umbrella of one governing state ...

That concept although appealing on a idealistic level ...

However realistically that dream was destroyed due to qabiil qabyaalaad etc etc watever you want to call it ...

We are here today in this predicament which ever side we may have decided to take due to that ...

and those of us that were fortunate enough to have not been effected can see the argument behind each case ...

Its what the Colonizers called divide and Concur ...

I dont want to blame a white boogey for our problem as Somalies ...

We need to take value off the qabiil and put it back on that Human somali being ...

I think whats very profound is this issue was raised in the Last sermon of the Prophet Muhammad saw ...

O’ People! Listen to my words, for I do not know whether we shall ever
meet again and perform Hajj after this year. O’ Ye people! Allah says, O’
people We created you from one male and one female and made you into
tribes and nations, so as to be known to one another. Verily in the sight
of Allah, the most honoured amongst you is the one who is most
God-fearing. There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab and for a
non-Arab over an Arab, nor for the white over the black nor for the black
over the white except in God-conciousness.

The only superiority you have over one another is in good deeds ...

Hmm ....

If darood came from Yemen and Isaaq somewhere in arabia, and hawiye from afric then what purpose does trying to united them serve? They're not even related to be united to pledge allegiance to ONE nation. fock it let division prevail.

[LaY-D_LicK]

If darood came from Yemen and Isaaq somewhere in arabia, and hawiye from afric then what purpose does trying to united them serve? They're not even related to be united to pledge allegiance to ONE nation. fock it let division prevail.

The purpose was To unite all the Somali Nations under one ruling Government ..

We are related whether people like it or not we are somalies and Thats how we are related and eventhough we hate Ethiopians they are our cousins and so are the Eriterians .

I just think that we should look at some of the kids that grew up in the diapora and see how qabiil has not effected them at all and what lessons we could learn from them ...

[James Dahl]

I think there is too much focus paid to the symptoms (Somalis faith in and reliance on clan) rather than the disease (Somalis lack of faith in government institutions and national unity).

Let's face it, successive governments have failed Somalis, and time and again the only thing that has helped ordinary Somalis was their clan. When the drought struck, the government did nothing, only the clans helped their kinsmen. When war ravaged Mogadishu people sought out their clan and were helped, they knew they would get no help from the government.

There is basically no incentive to trust the government and endorse national interests over clan interests, since the government not only does not legitimately represent the nation but they care nothing for its people. Until that changes, society will never change.

[Eaglehawk]

I think there is too much focus paid to the symptoms (Somalis faith in and reliance on clan) rather than the disease (Somalis lack of faith in government institutions and national unity).

Let's face it, successive governments have failed Somalis, and time and again the only thing that has helped ordinary Somalis was their clan. When the drought struck, the government did nothing, only the clans helped their kinsmen. When war ravaged Mogadishu people sought out their clan and were helped, they knew they would get no help from the government.

There is basically no incentive to trust the government and endorse national interests over clan interests, since the government not only does not legitimately represent the nation but they care nothing for its people. Until that changes, society will never change.

The White Man's Burden in display, kames the nigger somalis are at it again.
teach these savage niggers the reality of their misery

james ya ka tahay anglo saxon?
What was your tribal territory and what were your ancestors tribal Hidage

[kadarre]

I'd have Tribalism over Feudalism anyway.

[Voltage]

Eaglehawk you are being very inappropriate. You are showing extreme sensitivity which is un-Somali. James observes Somali people and culture and he has a right to share those observations among the others expressed.

[FAH1223]

I think there is too much focus paid to the symptoms (Somalis faith in and reliance on clan) rather than the disease (Somalis lack of faith in government institutions and national unity).

Let's face it, successive governments have failed Somalis, and time and again the only thing that has helped ordinary Somalis was their clan. When the drought struck, the government did nothing, only the clans helped their kinsmen. When war ravaged Mogadishu people sought out their clan and were helped, they knew they would get no help from the government.

There is basically no incentive to trust the government and endorse national interests over clan interests, since the government not only does not legitimately represent the nation but they care nothing for its people. Until that changes, society will never change.

[grandpakhalif]

Tribalism is only evil when it results in death, destruction and mass exodus of indigenous people.


Let's face it, some tribes have poor reputations compared to other tribes. It doesn't mean one is superior but it is a determining factor in how Somalis view each other.

[gurey25]

James's observation is spot on.
It is not even isolated to the somali context, its historical and it has been the case throughout the middle east for centuries.
The stronger and more capable and lasting the state became the more qabiil receded in peoples psyche.

Qabiil will never go away in its entirety but its influence will be reduced until the state begins to crumble again.

Look at syria, the poeple are halfway on the route to de-tribalization and allot of the people that came from tribal societies have even forgotten their tribes,
but todays events are showing that they are making a comeback.

[Adali]

tribalism is a term that has yet to be accurately defined, in this topic the OP defines tribalism incorrectly which unfortunately sets the premise for all sorts of arguments and counter arguments.

tribalism is very simple, it is the fundamental notions that your devotion and allegiance is to your blood relation only, this then translate into politics, economy and social atmosphere. There is nothing inherently evil or good about it, understand that.

[SahanGalbeed]

James Dahl said it in better terms than I would .
Tribalism is not inherently bad , but used unproperly it can create a schism among the people that will take years and years to undo.
I agree with samatar , urbanization promotes a less tribal driven sentiment .
But Asterix , you're too radical my friend .