Feminism in Islam

[metamorphosis]

And I agree with Evol that the modern obsession with the niqab and its mention as a presquisite of marriage is stupid and nonsensical, it is well known that the niqab is not a obligation, the idea that wearing one happens to make one excel above those who don't in faithfulness to Allah is also nonsensical, however the ignorant men who implore this upon Muslim sisters should not be used as a catalyst for Muslim feminists, the oxymoronic nature of women who practically take on the functional role of men in society is one in which that doesn't need that much explaining, to simplify life for a upright Muslim:

- Worship Allah alone and be concious of his presence
-Earn enough to sustain you and your family (don't be extravagant)
-Be humble in your conduct and do not chase wealth and materialism
-Die and prepare for the akhira

Thank you.

metamorphosis, greatly appreciated for that clear post.

In all honesty, it is difficult for me to submit to this. We are not perfect and everyone's path to righteousness is unique and personal. Mine is that I want to be a good muslim woman, but I find difficulty in respecting the fact that men, generally the more stupid, selfish and heartless sex can be considered our betters in Islam. Istakfrullah. I am not judging the deen, but it is something I will be spending most of my life trying to accept. Inshallah sooner.

But that doesn't mean we should submit or let men take over, controlling our lives just because the deen says we are not equal = Which most have interpreted as being better. Until someone shows me where that is the case, I will continue to be firm in my beliefs that women are more valuable to society and should be respected as such.

What you are saying is that you are not satisfied with Allah's judgement and your questioning allah. Why would it be difficult to come to terms with something allah has said? Whether you take your time to come terms with or reject it altogether, it will not matter and it will not make a difference. I can give you a few reasons why men are made the leaders and not women.

[metamorphosis]

Do you think it is feasible to be a righteous and pious woman and follow the sunna but still fight for our rights to be heard, seen and taken seriously when in the political/business battlefields? To insist that our witness counts as much as men and not half? We're taught as young girls our laughs or voices should not be heard before we are seen. If you are laughing in public old men stare and some have the audacity to say 'naaya afkaga sku qabo' ama 'naga amoos'.

Yes, you can be a righteous woman & fight for female rights in Islam. Case in point: the lovely niqaabi sister who fought off Mona Eltahawy. That's the point though, in Islam we have already bene given all our rights. It's a matter of us knowing them, demanding/fighting for them and utilizing them to the highest ability. Not many women, myself included if I were to admit, know our full rights in Islam. A few examples:

a) 2 women's witness statement = 1 man's. This is from the Raxma of Allah, to prevent people from throwing cheap shots to deny the sister's testimony. Hence 2 women are less vulnerable than 1. Not because she's forgetful, or exaggerates, or would lie.

b) women in Islam get 1/2 of the dhaxal that their brothers get. That's because you do NOT have to share your dhaxal, whereas your brothers are obligated to share theirs on you and their family. Whether they do it or not, iyaga iyo ilaahay ayay utahay, laakin they'll get questioned on that, and Allah has already prepared you for that eventuality with a plan B: your dhaxal!

c) women wearing niqaab & hijaab. Men are predators (hello brothers ). You don't throw a lamb into a predators den. Sex & sexual desires are to men what water & oxygen are to all of us. That's how they were created. And this is a man's world. Alxamdulillah we don't read minds because we'd be frightened of what men were thinking and we wouldn't leave our homes. Case in point: Jon Snow from Channel4 news saying "I have contemplated/imagined sex with every woman I ever saw in my life" (his mum excluded). And a whole roll of men were distancing themselves from him perhaps because he exposed their truth?
So a simple piece of cloth would do you more good (however annoying) and the men more harm than you could ever imagine.

Side point: I personally don't like Mona Eltahawy. My personal opinion is that the niqaab is the highest form of female piety & ciffa in Islam, in the footsteps of our mothers Aisha RA & Co., and I aspire to be like that one day in shaa Allah.

Actually that is precisely the reason why.

[YummyMummy]

^ evidence from Qur'aan & Sunnah please.

[Julkimi]

I don't believe in feminism. I believe in women rights though.

[jalaaludin5]

I don't believe in feminism. I believe in women rights though.

[metamorphosis]

^ evidence from Qur'aan & Sunnah please.

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

2:282

[YummyMummy]

Fair enough. Evidence presented.
I don't think that points to a weakness or inferiority among women, that men are immune from.

[metamorphosis]

Fair enough. Evidence presented.
I don't think that points to a weakness or inferiority among women, that men are immune from.

It doesn't. No one is immune to forgetfulness but in general women are more forgetful than men.

[YummyMummy]

^ I still don't think that's what the Aayah meant regarding female forgetfulness. I think there's more to it than a gender comparison. I concede it is due to that, but why/how, Allah only knows.

[Anarchist]

Studies have over the years shown that men are more forgetful than women. But, that's beside the point - this is not an issue of who is more forgetful or who has a more inferior brain, it has more to do with practicality. Let's not forget that it wasn't that long before the ayah that the Arabs were burying their infant daughters, women were being inherited alongside their possessions once their husbands died and so forth. This stipulation was put in place among other reasons because women at the time and even today (in many parts of the world) are pressured & influenced by male relatives when it comes to many aspects of their lives, including their judicial responsibilities. There was also the issue of family honor code, a culture that was not ready for gender equalities, etc. How can it be feasible at a time like that for a single woman to testify against anyone? Who will believe a mere woman's say? People don't change overnight and there lies the wisdom. Most of us usually get so wrapped up in the minute details, forgetting that Allah is beyond gender nonsense. Slice open a female brain and a male brain, and they're virtually identical. That should be enough.

[grandpakhalif]

Studies have over the years shown that men are more forgetful than women. But, that's beside the point - this is not an issue of who is more forgetful or who has a more inferior brain, it has more to do with practicality. Let's not forget that it wasn't that long before the ayah that the Arabs were burying their infant daughters, women were being inherited alongside their possessions once their husbands died and so forth. This stipulation was put in place among other reasons because women at the time and even today (in many parts of the world) are pressured & influenced by male relatives when it comes to many aspects of their lives, including their judicial responsibilities. There was also the issue of family honor code, a culture that was not ready for gender equalities, etc. How can it be feasible at a time like that for a single woman to testify against anyone? Who will believe a mere woman's say? People don't change overnight and there lies the wisdom. Most of us usually get so wrapped up in the minute details, forgetting that Allah is beyond gender nonsense. Slice open a female brain and a male brain, and they're virtually identical. That should be enough.

No they're not.

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion." Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

[burcaawi14]

Women and men are Equal in islam. If a man or women does a sin they both face the same consequence when meeting their lord. Same with if they do ajar. Women and men are equal BUT... we're not the same. There is hikma behind the path that Allah has told us to follow. The problem is when we question this Wisdom without any prior studying of islamic jurisprudence. I find it absurd that muslims can debate the islamic legal system, which is known to be arguably the most complex set of laws, without giving it just due by studying it. But when it comes to "secular knowledge" whatever John, Billy and Bob said is the epitome of understanding. You go to university for 4,5,6,7,8 years followed by rigorous training in the field just to be able to speak on a subject, but when it comes to Islam..meh i can say what i want and disregard 1400 years of scholarship. Some serious inferiority complexes wallahi. Have some back bone people.

[EvolSyawla]

I have been unavailable, but have returned so bear with the long response:

Considering all the great evil committed in this world was done by men, I stand by my statement.

Since women historically have never had the power or equal opportunity to commit all of those evils, statistically speaking who else would have committed them? Having your cake and eating it too, not bad

Statistically speaking? Women must fight 10x as hard for opportunities of power, and when it does happen, either by succession or force:
Queen Hatshepsut my favorite
Queen Cleopatra
Nefertiti
Empress Theodora
Queen Semiramis
Zenobia
Queen Makeda of Sheba
Empress Suiko
Eleanor of Aquitaine
Queen Catherine "the Great"
Empress Hsiao-ch'in
Joan of Arc

Just to name the most prominent. None of whom (as much as I can tell) were known for cruelty, murder, corruption, greed, sexual perversion etc. Great women when, with opportunity, were instrumental in the betterment of their empire, kingdom or country.

What you are saying is that you are not satisfied with Allah's judgement and your questioning allah. Why would it be difficult to come to terms with something allah has said? Whether you take your time to come terms with or reject it altogether, it will not matter and it will not make a difference. I can give you a few reasons why men are made the leaders and not women.

Do not misunderstand me walaal. First of all, that is my battle. Some people can't find it in themselves to pray 5x a day or fast all of Ramadan. People who have enough money but don't see the point in Hajj. Everyone has their personal quest to being the most devout Muslim they can be, so because I need clarification on some issues and am open with it, do not take it lightly. Don't assume you can judge another's struggle over other's simply because you feel this is irrelevant - it would be to you, you are a man! Muslims have warped Islam to make it a little challenging, as most things with religion and I accept that. My question was not to question Islam, but to ask are the two incompatible.

[EvolSyawla]

[...]I find it absurd that muslims can debate the islamic legal system, which is known to be arguably the most complex set of laws, without giving it just due by studying it Who is arguing?[...]Some serious inferiority complexes wallahi. Have some back bone people.lol

Did you read anything of the conversation before you said that? Thank you for the beginning of that post, it is appreciated. Inferiority complex? Because women need to take back the control men have assumed for their own? lol right. Please go back to whatever dugsi you popped your head out of.

I don't believe in feminism. I believe in women rights though.

What is the difference? Being a feminist isn't necessarily a movement. It doesn't involve burning bras or attacking anyone who says 'mankind' vs 'humankind' (lol) It is a state of being. You do not concede to abuses against women, and will speak up when you can. Some women speak up all the time, for small petty issues, but it is all the same. If you believe in women's rights and will fight for them - in any form - you are a feminist. If you don't feel you'd fight for the respect, dignity and abuses against women, I don't know, I guess you wouldn't be a feminist. There is a widespread negative image against feminists, but I think that is only because as society men have made it okay to mock a woman who wants to run for president, who doesn't want to be paid 70cents on the dollar, who will protest violations against women who are unable to voice their frustrations etc.

@ YummyMummy, thank you very much, as always I can rely on your perspectives. I will ask you some questions about that in a PM

@Phinks, why do you insist on arguing when that is what I've been trying to say. Women and men are equal in the sense that we need access to the same opportunities in society that men have. We are not less intelligent and we are not incapable. I understand that in Islam, hell even biology, we are not equals, and you're right: We, our minds, do compliment each other. But that's because we are all human. Humans who work together will ALWAYS be better. Male and female viewpoints and collaboration is what is missing from this world. Instead of men insisting they have a penis and should therefore be the ones in positions of power and decision making (most female CEO's are in this position because it is either their company, or majority women run the show already, men will not have a woman of power above them). We are agreeing, and I am not saying women need to rule the world, fk men bla bla, that is immature and does not look at the bigger picture.

Also, If you are this wonderfully enlightened regarding women, please stop with the constant misogynistic comments.

I thank everyone for their points of view. Gives me some different angles, and I appreciate that.

[ZubeirAwal]

I agree bucuraawi, if we as Muslims had our prioritize right (deen ----> secularized education) there wouldn't be so much hysteria around complex issues in this religion.

One of the signs of the end of times is that women will lead nations, how many do you see