Putin Waa Raggeedi

[TheMightyNomad]

First of all there is no such thing as pure deen. The message of Islam is for all people and all times; that’s the essence of its universality. So being a Muslim does not mean speaking Arabic or loosing one’s mother tongue and Muslims have no insight as to who will gain God’s favor on the Day of Judgment. The day and what will transpire therein are exclusive to God, not the creations. Islam does not require cultural uniformity. These are deeply embedded ideals of Islam in its altruistic universal application among people of diversity—from Sudan to Indonesia and any other geographical community where the faith is being practiced a semblance of peculiar culture could be seen. The same thing with us, the unique Somali expression within this faith is not homologous but in Somalia , the Somali traditions are distinctively Somali.

The primary challenge with Islam has always been that of the fact that those who God in His infinite wisdom has given the power to spread Islam are also doing so to spread their particular culture which is wrapped up in the Islamic ideology, as in the case of Saudi Arabia's Salafism, which is just Arab nationalism disguised as Islam. Is their brand of islam not ours.

This is the first, and still perhaps definitive “problem” which has created misunderstanding and misrepresentation and fueling the phobia shown or being shown to Islam in recent memory.

All those Somalis who are acting like bunch of pathetic victims yelling Arab supremacy, should take a page from the book of other Muslim communities in how they have successfully resisted Salafism or Najdi Arab Islam. Looking at Islam in Turkey, West Africa, Indonesia and China we see a strong de-emphasis on this Arabized Islamic version. This is testimony to the agency at work within these places.

You're conflating deen and culture. Culture is from the people and will be different between Muslims of varying backgrounds. There is nothing wrong with this as long as it doesn't go against any aspect of the deen. Deen is from Allah (Swt) and applies to every Muslim in every land, it is not subject to our preferences.

There are, of course, differences of opinions on many matters within the deen; this is perfectly acceptable and has always existed. Then there are acts which have no basis in the deen; these are innovations which we have been warned about and must therefore reject.

What transpired in that video falls into the latter category.

There is no deen anywhere untouched by culture. Culture and religion share space and are deeply intertwined; sometimes dyadic, sometimes so complex it becomes a single irreducible unit. The purpose of a comparison is only to better facilitate how they interact with each other, but not to suggest a pure dichotomy between the two. Where there is religion there will always be culture—It can be debated if the reverse is true.


All you are doing here is branding Saudi Arab islam as pure islam and make false distinction by branding every other form Islam as cultural ''innovation''. So you see this Salafists imposed mono-cultural Islam which tries to destroy culture and religious diversity within Islam. And while Salafism tries to make obsolete, it is the Arabized culture which they bring as the norm for diverse people. So race is irrelevant as long as Islam is Arabized. Something is not shirk just because Arabs do not practice it, it is if it goes against the basic tenants of islam.

Islam encourages culture and as part of the sources of Islamic law (Shari’a) there exist what is termed Urf (that’s the custom of a particular community of believers wherever they may be geographically located is accepted as part of Islamic practice; Islam has not said abandon that culture in so far as it is not contradictory to the basic tenets).

This is why Islam today remains one of the most culturally, colorful religion on the planet. We can look at the Harar and Somalia, and contrasts it with the Islam of southern Ethiopia of the Hamer, versus the dynamic aesthetic of Islam in Senegal and Mali. Islam has always been a photogenic religion because of the expression of cultures in it. The saying goes that ‘Islam is like water passing over a rock; it takes the color of the stone it passes over.’

Islam in its set of regulations does not inform aesthetic but rules and regulations and codes of conduct. Styles may differ but the central concept is what matters.

[Estranged]

There is no deen anywhere untouched by culture. Culture and religion share space and are deeply intertwined; sometimes dyadic, sometimes so complex it becomes a single irreducible unit. The purpose of a comparison is only to better facilitate how they interact with each other, but not to suggest a pure dichotomy between the two. Where there is religion there will always be culture—It can be debated if the reverse is true.


All you are doing here is branding Saudi Arab islam as pure islam and make false distinction by branding every other form Islam as cultural ''innovation''. So you see this Salafists imposed mono-cultural Islam which tries to destroy culture and religious diversity within Islam. And while Salafism tries to make obsolete, it is the Arabized culture which they bring as the norm for diverse people. So race is irrelevant as long as Islam is Arabized. Something is not shirk just because Arabs do not practice it, it is if it goes against the basic tenants of islam.

Islam encourages culture and as part of the sources of Islamic law (Shari’a) there exist what is termed Urf (that’s the custom of a particular community of believers wherever they may be geographically located is accepted as part of Islamic practice; Islam has not said abandon that culture in so far as it is not contradictory to the basic tenets).

This is why Islam today remains one of the most culturally, colorful religion on the planet. We can look at the Harar and Somalia, and contrasts it with the Islam of southern Ethiopia of the Hamer, versus the dynamic aesthetic of Islam in Senegal and Mali. Islam has always been a photogenic religion because of the expression of cultures in it. The saying goes that ‘Islam is like water passing over a rock; it takes the color of the stone it passes over.’

Islam in its set of regulations does not inform aesthetic but rules and regulations and codes of conduct. Styles may differ but the central concept is what matters.

Reading this, and knowing that you are defending people who dance in mosques as a form of worship, I can see how deep your confusion runs. Remember, on a spectrum there are two extremes.

1) Culture isn't something static; it is, by definition, the lifestyle and habits of people within a society. As such, it is omnipresent; i.e., where there are humans there will always be culture. So yes, by extension, where there is religion there is culture.

Any aspect of culture that is compatible with Islam is accepted, no problem. However, parts that contravene the teachings of Islam, e.g. building statues of notable people, are obviously rejected. Simple as. There was no need for a thesis, or perhaps you disagree with this?



2) All you are doing here is branding Saudi Arab islam as pure islam and make false distinction by branding every other form Islam as cultural ''innovation''.

This was just slander on your part. I already told you what I 'brand' as innovation. It's mentioned in the post you were replying to. Also, I never mentioned Saudi Arabia, nor promoted Salafism. I'm not even a Salafi myself. But why did you immediately assume and attack Saudi and the Salafi school? Do you blame them for everything? Perhaps your anger towards them has made you prejudiced.

Oh, and, how many 'forms' of Islam are there?



3) Give me a clear, straightforward example of "Arabized Islam" that is promoted by Salafism AND (non Arabic) cultural Islam that is not at odds with Islam in any way, but is rejected by Salafism.



4) Islam has always been a photogenic religion because of the expression of cultures in it. The saying goes that ‘Islam is like water passing over a rock; it takes the color of the stone it passes over.’

We can look at this after seeing your response. Especially concerning #1.

[TheMightyNomad]

Reading this, and knowing that you are defending people who dance in mosques as a form of worship, I can see how deep your confusion runs. Remember, on a spectrum there are two extremes.

You have a very bleak world view. This isn't about defending anyone, this isn't black and white. It is not us versus them. Whether i disagree with Someone who break dances on the dinner table is ultimately irrelevant unless i wish to impose my beliefs unto them or they impose on me.

It is about principle of tolerance and search for understanding.

1) Culture isn't something static; it is, by definition, the lifestyle and habits of people within a society. As such, it is omnipresent; i.e., where there are humans there will always be culture. So yes, by extension, where there is religion there is culture.

Any aspect of culture that is compatible with Islam is accepted, no problem. However, parts that contravene the teachings of Islam, e.g. building statues of notable people, are obviously rejected. Simple as. There was no need for a thesis, or perhaps you disagree with this?

It doesn't cut it with just agreeing with my statements, you also have to understand the implications of it and what it entails.

I'll give you an example:

As a sign of respect to the elderly among the Arabs, younger ones could touch the beard of the old which is not being practiced among the vast Hausa-Muslim communities of Africa and maybe seen as a ‘taboo’ and disrespect to the elderly. Again among the Hausa and Nupe communities in West Africa, take for instance the culture of greetings (and this also apply and is common among the Fulanis and Touregs); the younger ones are required to lower their bodies (kneel down) assuming an elderly person is standing but some Arabs in their understanding see and propagate this under Wahhabism as polytheism (Shirk) by calling it as prostration in prayer (salat) which clearly the two are distinct. How will a Hausa Muslim see an Arab who kisses or hugs a lady even though she might be his direct blood relation (that’s a woman who cannot be married due to blood affinity)?

There are customs among Muslims like this even though some have sanctions as to their being acceptable as good or bad in Islam and must be seen as such in their context: of good or bad (sin) not blanket condemnation just because the Arabs do not practice them.

2) All you are doing here is branding Saudi Arab islam as pure islam and make false distinction by branding every other form Islam as cultural ''innovation''.

This was just slander on your part. I already told you what I 'brand' as innovation. It's mentioned in the post you were replying to. Also, I never mentioned Saudi Arabia, nor promoted Salafism. I'm not even a Salafi myself. But why did you immediately assume and attack Saudi and the Salafi school? Do you blame them for everything? Perhaps your anger towards them has made you prejudiced.

Oh, and, how many 'forms' of Islam are there?

If it looks like a duck & it quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck Saying ''hey i am not Salafi'' or telling us you do not endorse Najidi Arab islam outright is trivial and meaningless. It's like me playing football but saying hey i am not a footballer never identified as such. which is clearly contradictory if you follow a practice or ideological thinking but distance yourself from bearing the label of it does not negate anything.

You have the firm belief that there is mono-cultural Islam and not multi-form Islam radiating from a single revealed pragmatic core. You find the multiplicities of traditional Muslim cultures intolerable. Referring to something like ''pure deen'' calling people biddah, shirk outright with no regard is Salafi shtick whether you identify as one or not

3) Give me a clear, straightforward example of "Arabized Islam" that is promoted by Salafism AND (non Arabic) cultural Islam that is not at odds with Islam in any way, but is rejected by Salafism.

There is plenty harmful and outright things against Islam in Arab culture like Honor killings. institutionalized discrimination on different races and hatred for women ,domestic violence.,etc etc. I could mail you a whole list of it if you start to romanticize arab culture, But hey i am not here to argue that every aspect of someones culture is in line with Islam or that culture is static. Culture is dynamic and supposed to cultivate. There are many things in someones culture that are not at odds with Islam, having such pre-assumptions is wrong that all aspects of culture is inherently in conflict with religion is false dichotomy


I could better illustrate how Salafis promote ''Arabized Islam, by it's founders and teachers of Salafiyyah like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students, Al-Albani and his students, and all other scholars of the Salaf, Who are of the belief that if you do not accept your racial inferiority to the Arabs then you are apart of Shu'ubiyyah (Modernists and Communists) and are an innovator and no longer apart of Ah'lus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

Ibn Taymiyyah said Iqtidaa’ As-Siraat al-Mustaqeem:

"The belief of Ahlussunnati waJamaa’ah is that the essence of Arabs is better than that of ‘Ajam, whether the ‘Ajam are Hebrew, Assyrians, Romans, Persians or others".

And

Here is what Al- Albani said:

"However, that does not negate the Arab race being better than the race of the rest of the nations; rather, this is what I believe in – even though I am Albanian but indeed I am Muslim, all praises and thanks are to Allaah – because the precedence of the Arab race that I have mentioned is that which ahl us-sunnah wal jamaa’ah",

Even tho they hide this from their lay men some like you, this has many applications in their beliefs and how they interpret Islam. That is why you will see huge hypocrisy made by Salafis and how they down play they have to put down the so called Ignorance of Non-Arab muslims. Everything Arab has value while everything else outside of that is irrelevant periodically labeled jahhilyyah'' and ''biddah''.

[QaxootiWaaxid]

arab negroes, your gods aren't real

[Estranged]

You have a very bleak world view. This isn't about defending anyone, this isn't black and white. It is not us versus them. Whether i disagree with Someone who break dances on the dinner table is ultimately irrelevant unless i wish to impose my beliefs unto them or they impose on me.

It is about principle of tolerance and search for understanding.


It doesn't cut it with just agreeing with my statements, you also have to understand the implications of it and what it entails.

I'll give you an example:

As a sign of respect to the elderly among the Arabs, younger ones could touch the beard of the old which is not being practiced among the vast Hausa-Muslim communities of Africa and maybe seen as a ‘taboo’ and disrespect to the elderly. Again among the Hausa and Nupe communities in West Africa, take for instance the culture of greetings (and this also apply and is common among the Fulanis and Touregs); the younger ones are required to lower their bodies (kneel down) assuming an elderly person is standing but some Arabs in their understanding see and propagate this under Wahhabism as polytheism (Shirk) by calling it as prostration in prayer (salat) which clearly the two are distinct. How will a Hausa Muslim see an Arab who kisses or hugs a lady even though she might be his direct blood relation (that’s a woman who cannot be married due to blood affinity)?

There are customs among Muslims like this even though some have sanctions as to their being acceptable as good or bad in Islam and must be seen as such in their context: of good or bad (sin) not blanket condemnation just because the Arabs do not practice them.


If it looks like a duck & it quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck Saying ''hey i am not Salafi'' or telling us you do not endorse Najidi Arab islam outright is trivial and meaningless. It's like me playing football but saying hey i am not a footballer never identified as such. which is clearly contradictory if you follow a practice or ideological thinking but distance yourself from bearing the label of it does not negate anything.

You have the firm belief that there is mono-cultural Islam and not multi-form Islam radiating from a single revealed pragmatic core. You find the multiplicities of traditional Muslim cultures intolerable. Referring to something like ''pure deen'' calling people biddah, shirk outright with no regard is Salafi shtick whether you identify as one or not

There is plenty harmful and outright things against Islam in Arab culture like Honor killings. institutionalized discrimination on different races and hatred for women ,domestic violence.,etc etc. I could mail you a whole list of it if you start to romanticize arab culture, But hey i am not here to argue that every aspect of someones culture is in line with Islam or that culture is static. Culture is dynamic and supposed to cultivate. There are many things in someones culture that are not at odds with Islam, having such pre-assumptions is wrong that all aspects of culture is inherently in conflict with religion is false dichotomy


I could better illustrate how Salafis promote ''Arabized Islam, by it's founders and teachers of Salafiyyah like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students, Al-Albani and his students, and all other scholars of the Salaf, Who are of the belief that if you do not accept your racial inferiority to the Arabs then you are apart of Shu'ubiyyah (Modernists and Communists) and are an innovator and no longer apart of Ah'lus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

Ibn Taymiyyah said Iqtidaa’ As-Siraat al-Mustaqeem:

"The belief of Ahlussunnati waJamaa’ah is that the essence of Arabs is better than that of ‘Ajam, whether the ‘Ajam are Hebrew, Assyrians, Romans, Persians or others".

And

Here is what Al- Albani said:

"However, that does not negate the Arab race being better than the race of the rest of the nations; rather, this is what I believe in – even though I am Albanian but indeed I am Muslim, all praises and thanks are to Allaah – because the precedence of the Arab race that I have mentioned is that which ahl us-sunnah wal jamaa’ah",

Even tho they hide this from their lay men some like you, this has many applications in their beliefs and how they interpret Islam. That is why you will see huge hypocrisy made by Salafis and how they down play they have to put down the so called Ignorance of Non-Arab muslims. Everything Arab has value while everything else outside of that is irrelevant periodically labeled jahhilyyah'' and ''biddah''.

1) Principles and tolerance, eh? So you don't believe in the concept of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil? I see..

2) Going down on one knee out of respect.. No one claims that's worship, but the reason that would be discouraged is due to an incident from the seerah where the Sahabah stood up for the Prophet (Saw) out of respect and he didn't like that and told them not to do it. And who was more deserving of being shown respect than the Prophet (Saw)?

No no, it must be because Arabs just hate a'jamis.. They just want to restrict and control them.

3) If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck... Oh please. So you can't admit your mistake, you have to force me into your box. Believe I'm a Salafi despite being told otherwise, I really don't care. But it does get annoying when you keep bringing it up as if that does something for me. Oh well..

4) I already asked you to please expand on the different forms of Islam. I'm genuinely curious to see what you'll bring forth.

5) Honour killings, racism etc... That whole paragraph was irrelevant. Unless you can prove this is what Salafis promote? Nevertheless, your prejudice for Arabs is going strong I see.

6) ...having such pre-assumptions is wrong that all aspects of culture is inherently in conflict with religion is false dichotomy

Are you serious? No one said this. Do you just type these things for the sake of it? Or create your own arguments?

7) Ok, so we finally got somewhere. Your example of Salafis promoting "Arabized Islam". The superiority of the Arab race. Except, they don't really promote this, as you self consciously admitted. I don't even know if it's a widespread belief among them.

So example not so clear, try again. You forgot about the other example; Salafis rejecting "cultural Islam" that doesn't go against Islam in any way..

Less prejudice and assumptions, and more on topic posts next time.

[TheMightyNomad]

1) Principles and tolerance, eh? So you don't believe in the concept of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil? I see..

Correction the principles it the act of tolerating and search for understanding. You cannot force anything on any people and be blind sighted by ethnocentrism.

Assuming this about good and evil. Again you show this kind of black and white colored outlook. Us vs them. That is essentially the mindset of a staunch bigot not a Muslim

You can disagree, but also tolerate. Religious tolerance plays a huge role in Islam.

Now when it comes to understanding. Let's look at the facts if sufi dancing is biddah or sunnah.

Before citing the hadiths on Sufi Dancing (Hadra), I'd like to clarify the significance of Dhikr in Islam and especially in the Sufi Path (tariqa). This is specially important as Sufi Dancing is a form of Dhikr (Remembrance of God).

Dhikr (Remembrance of God) is the most excellent act in Islam and is stressed over a hundred times in the Qur'an. It is the most praiseworthy work to earn God's pleasure, the most effective weapon to overcome the enemy, and the most deserving of deeds in reward. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ said that the People of Paradise will only regret one thing: not having made enough dhikr in the world!

Let's quote some Quránic verses

"O Believers, make abundant Dhikr of Allah!" (33:41)

Allah mentions of His servants "Those who make dhikr of their Lord standing, and sitting, and lying on their sides" (3:191)

The people who call onto Allah without distraction have been mentioned in Qur'an
"Those who believe, and their hearts find inner tranquility in the Dhikr of Allah: Verily, in the dhikr of Allah, Hearts find peace" (13:28)

A man came to the Prophet and said, "Ya Rasulallah, the laws and conditions of Islam have become too many for me. Tell me something that I can always keep" The Prophet said: "(I am advising you in one thing:) Keep your tongue always moist with dhikrullah. (Ahmad, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, and Ibn Hibban)

Allah says: I am to my servant as he expects of Me, I am with him when he remembers Me. If he remembers Me (makes My dhikr) in his heart, I remember him (make his dhikr) to Myself, and if he remembers me in an assembly, I mention him in an assembly better than his." (Bukhari and Muslim)

It is necessary to distinguish between the essence of Sufism and it's social manifestations, which are always only secondary phenomena. Each Sufi Order has many forms for group dhikr, which may include recitation, chanting, singing, music, dance, incense, muraqaba (meditation), ecstasy, and trance.

Sunnah, apart from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ and his actions also include those acts which were done in front of him while he remained silent , which indicted his tacit approval for them. Ecstatic Sufi Dancing is from the Sunna of the Holy Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ as we will shortly see.

Proof # 1


عن أنس قال: «كانت الحبشة يزفنون بين يدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلّم ويرقصون ويقولون: محمد عبد صالح ، فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلّم: ما يقولون؟ قالوا: يقولون: محمد عبد صالح

Translation: It is narrated by Anas (R.A) that the Habashis were presenting their art in front of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and “THEY WERE DANCING (Yarqasun)” while saying: Muhammadun Abdun Salih (i.e. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم the righteous slave). The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked: What are they saying? They said: Muhammadun Abdun Salih [Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume No.3, Page no. 152]



Proof # 2


أتيت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وجعفر ‏ ‏وزيد ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏لزيد ‏ ‏أنت ‏ ‏مولاي ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏قال وقال ‏ ‏لجعفر ‏ ‏أنت أشبهت خلقي وخلقي قال ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏زيد ‏ ‏قال وقال لي أنت مني وأنا منك قال ‏ ‏فحجلت ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏جعفر

Translation: Hadrat Ali (ra) said: I went to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) with Jafar (RA) and Zayd (ra), The Prophet said to Zayd: You are my freedman (anta Mawlay), “AT THIS ZAYD BEGAN TO HOP ON ONE LEG (HAJALA) AROUND THE PROPHET” then the Prophet said to Jafar (ra): You resemble me in my creation and my manners, at this Jafar also began to hop behind Zayd, then the Prophet said to Ali (ra): You are from me and I am from you, at this he also started to hop behind Jafar. [Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal 1:537 #857] Click Here for Scanned Page (85)

Imam al Hafidh al Bayhaqi (rah) in explanation of this hadith said:

وفي هَذَا إنْ صَحَّ دلالةٌ على جوازِ الحَجْلِ، وهو أَنْ يَرْفَعَ رِجْلاً ويَقْفِزَ على الأُخْرَى مِنَ الفَرَحِ، فالرقصُ الَّذِي يكونُ عَلَى مِثَالِهِ يكونُ مِثْلَهُ في الجوازِ. والله أعلمُ

Translation: In this (hadith) if sahih has “PROOF” and "PERMISSIBILITY" of hopping (dancing) which includes “RISING UP OR JUMPING IN STATE OF JOY” and also that of doing “RAQS” being similar to it which is also allowed – And Allah knows the best [Sunnan al Baihaqi al Kubra (15/333)]

Scholar # 1

Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti (rah) was asked for a Question “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied: How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “. . . those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Qur'an 3:191). And ‘A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as [Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed.......and the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience, Hence it is correct to stand and dance during gatherings of Dhikr and Sama according to a group of Majority of Scholars, among them being Shaykh ul-Islam Iz udin bin Abd al-Salaam.

Scholar 2#

Imam Nawawi said: “Dancing is not unlawful , unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate.And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman” [Minhaj at talibin wa `umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi edition, Pae No. 152]


Sufi dancing is not Biddah it is sunnah. Get it.

[TheMightyNomad]

2) Going down on one knee out of respect.. No one claims that's worship, but the reason that would be discouraged is due to an incident from the seerah where the Sahabah stood up for the Prophet (Saw) out of respect and he didn't like that and told them not to do it. And who was more deserving of being shown respect than the Prophet (Saw)?
No no, it must be because Arabs just hate a'jamis.. They just want to restrict and control them.

Now you are just misrepresenting my example.

One knee? Who said one knee?. This is what i said :---->''the younger ones are required to lower their bodies (kneel down) assuming an elderly person is standing but some Arabs in their understanding see and propagate this under Wahhabism as polytheism (Shirk) by calling it as prostration in prayer (salat) which clearly the two are distinct.''

Salafis actually do claim its a worship and call it prostration, look at all the articles online, and how does this relate to the Sahaba standing up for the prophet? That is a false equivalence

And also great strawman right there, never said Arabs hate ajamis. That's your words not mine. This is what i said ---> There are customs among Muslims like this even though some have sanctions as to their being acceptable as good or bad in Islam and must be seen as such in their context: of good or bad (sin) not blanket condemnation just because the Arabs do not practice them.

3) If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck... Oh please. So you can't admit your mistake, you have to force me into your box. Believe I'm a Salafi despite being told otherwise, I really don't care. But it does get annoying when you keep bringing it up as if that does something for me. Oh well..

Not forcing you into any box. Saying ''hey i am not Salafi'' or telling us you do not endorse Najidi Arab islam outright is trivial and meaningless. It's like me playing football but saying hey i am not a footballer never identified as such or ''i believe Arabs are racially superior but i am not racist stop putting into box''. which is clearly contradictory if you follow a practice or ideological thinking but distance yourself from bearing the label of it that does not negate anything or make you unlike it.

4) I already asked you to please expand on the different forms of Islam. I'm genuinely curious to see what you'll bring forth.

Sure, there is 3 branches of Islam Sunni,Shia, Wahhabi(Salafism) .There are, however, over 150 different smaller sects of Islam in total.

Sunni Islam are broken into 4 four madhabs hanbali, maliki, shafici and hanafi.



Come on you should already know this. If you even studied Islamic theology.

5) Honour killings, racism etc... That whole paragraph was irrelevant. Unless you can prove this is what Salafis promote? Nevertheless, your prejudice for Arabs is going strong I see.

The point i am making with those examples is that any culture including Arab culture has no precedence. Salafists promote Arab nationalism and Arab supremacy which i have proven by quoting Salafi scholars views in the previous post.

6) ...having such pre-assumptions is wrong that all aspects of culture is inherently in conflict with religion is false dichotomy

Are you serious? No one said this. Do you just type these things for the sake of it? Or create your own arguments?

Why are you so reactionary and defensive, I didn't infer that you said anything. I was making a point, now you can feel free to agree to it.

7) Ok, so we finally got somewhere. Your example of Salafis promoting "Arabized Islam". The superiority of the Arab race. Except, they don't really promote this, as you self consciously admitted. I don't even know if it's a widespread belief among them.

In fact they do believe Arab is a master race. It's something taught in the salafi doctrine. Did you just ignore proof ive shown you because it is inconvenient to you?

You going to just ignore the example i shown of the founders and teachers of Salafiyyah like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students, Al-Albani and his students, and all other scholars of the Salaf, Who are of the belief that if you do not accept your racial inferiority to the Arabs then you are apart of Shu'ubiyyah (Modernists and Communists) and are an innovator and no longer apart of Ah'lus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

You can just google the term ''Shu'ubiyyah'' and research this for yourself they have a whole Salafi doctrine dedicated to Arab superiority and the inferiority of the ajam(non-Arabs)

Clearly this view is innovation and goes against the prophets last sermon and the message of the quran.

So example not so clear, try again. You forgot about the other example; Salafis rejecting "cultural Islam" that doesn't go against Islam in any way..

It's because to the Salafis , Arabized Islam is true Islam and everything else is culture and innovation. They just label the Arab version as Islam and make false distinctions.

There is huge book written on Salafism being Arabism and a form a Arab nationalism that came to be as reactionary to western colonization
The Other Frontiers of Arab Nationalism: Ibadis, Berbers, and the Arabist-Salafi Press in the Interwar Period
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40389587?s ... b_contents

Less prejudice and assumptions, and more on topic posts next time.

The irony, Criticism does not equal prejudice,. It is not based on assumptions but rather research and information. If you are going to make allegations you fork over proof.

I know you find it hard to accept , but it is true Salafism is a heretic group of people who promote Arab nationalism.

[jamal859]

First of all there is no such thing as pure deen. The message of Islam is for all people and all times; that’s the essence of its universality. So being a Muslim does not mean speaking Arabic or loosing one’s mother tongue and Muslims have no insight as to who will gain God’s favor on the Day of Judgment. The day and what will transpire therein are exclusive to God, not the creations. Islam does not require cultural uniformity. These are deeply embedded ideals of Islam in its altruistic universal application among people of diversity—from Sudan to Indonesia and any other geographical community where the faith is being practiced a semblance of peculiar culture could be seen. The same thing with us, the unique Somali expression within this faith is not homologous but in Somalia , the Somali traditions are distinctively Somali.

The primary challenge with Islam has always been that of the fact that those who God in His infinite wisdom has given the power to spread Islam are also doing so to spread their particular culture which is wrapped up in the Islamic ideology, as in the case of Saudi Arabia's Salafism, which is just Arab nationalism disguised as Islam. Is their brand of islam not ours.

This is the first, and still perhaps definitive “problem” which has created misunderstanding and misrepresentation and fueling the phobia shown or being shown to Islam in recent memory.

All those Somalis who are acting like bunch of pathetic victims yelling Arab supremacy, should take a page from the book of other Muslim communities in how they have successfully resisted Salafism or Najdi Arab Islam. Looking at Islam in Turkey, West Africa, Indonesia and China we see a strong de-emphasis on this Arabized Islamic version. This is testimony to the agency at work within these places.

I fully agree 100%

[gurey25]

Maashallah mightynomad
You took the time and effort to answer the questions.
Very few could have done it better.

Just wanted to add theology or aqeeda.
For ahlu sunnah wa aljamaca comprised of 3 schools if theology. Ashcariya, maturidi and the more conservative athari.
Aqeeda was simple and easy to understand and can be thought in a matter of hours.
While the salafiya today have volumes upon volumes of books on aqeeda.

Can you explain tawassul from the point of view of sunnah. This is the main Avenue of attack by the salafiya
Even more than dikr.

[Estranged]

1) Principles and tolerance, eh? So you don't believe in the concept of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil? I see..

Correction the principles it the act of tolerating and search for understanding. You cannot force anything on any people and be blind sighted by ethnocentrism.

Assuming this about good and evil. Again you show this kind of black and white colored outlook. Us vs them. That is essentially the mindset of a staunch bigot not a Muslim

You can disagree, but also tolerate. Religious tolerance plays a huge role in Islam.

Now when it comes to understanding. Let's look at the facts if sufi dancing is biddah or sunnah.

Before citing the hadiths on Sufi Dancing (Hadra), I'd like to clarify the significance of Dhikr in Islam and especially in the Sufi Path (tariqa). This is specially important as Sufi Dancing is a form of Dhikr (Remembrance of God).

Dhikr (Remembrance of God) is the most excellent act in Islam and is stressed over a hundred times in the Qur'an. It is the most praiseworthy work to earn God's pleasure, the most effective weapon to overcome the enemy, and the most deserving of deeds in reward. The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ said that the People of Paradise will only regret one thing: not having made enough dhikr in the world!

Let's quote some Quránic verses

"O Believers, make abundant Dhikr of Allah!" (33:41)

Allah mentions of His servants "Those who make dhikr of their Lord standing, and sitting, and lying on their sides" (3:191)

The people who call onto Allah without distraction have been mentioned in Qur'an
"Those who believe, and their hearts find inner tranquility in the Dhikr of Allah: Verily, in the dhikr of Allah, Hearts find peace" (13:28)

A man came to the Prophet and said, "Ya Rasulallah, the laws and conditions of Islam have become too many for me. Tell me something that I can always keep" The Prophet said: "(I am advising you in one thing:) Keep your tongue always moist with dhikrullah. (Ahmad, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, and Ibn Hibban)

Allah says: I am to my servant as he expects of Me, I am with him when he remembers Me. If he remembers Me (makes My dhikr) in his heart, I remember him (make his dhikr) to Myself, and if he remembers me in an assembly, I mention him in an assembly better than his." (Bukhari and Muslim)

It is necessary to distinguish between the essence of Sufism and it's social manifestations, which are always only secondary phenomena. Each Sufi Order has many forms for group dhikr, which may include recitation, chanting, singing, music, dance, incense, muraqaba (meditation), ecstasy, and trance.

Sunnah, apart from the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ and his actions also include those acts which were done in front of him while he remained silent , which indicted his tacit approval for them. Ecstatic Sufi Dancing is from the Sunna of the Holy Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم‎ as we will shortly see.

Proof # 1


عن أنس قال: «كانت الحبشة يزفنون بين يدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلّم ويرقصون ويقولون: محمد عبد صالح ، فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلّم: ما يقولون؟ قالوا: يقولون: محمد عبد صالح

Translation: It is narrated by Anas (R.A) that the Habashis were presenting their art in front of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and “THEY WERE DANCING (Yarqasun)” while saying: Muhammadun Abdun Salih (i.e. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم the righteous slave). The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) asked: What are they saying? They said: Muhammadun Abdun Salih [Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume No.3, Page no. 152]



Proof # 2


أتيت النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وجعفر ‏ ‏وزيد ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏فقال ‏ ‏لزيد ‏ ‏أنت ‏ ‏مولاي ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏قال وقال ‏ ‏لجعفر ‏ ‏أنت أشبهت خلقي وخلقي قال ‏ ‏فحجل ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏زيد ‏ ‏قال وقال لي أنت مني وأنا منك قال ‏ ‏فحجلت ‏ ‏وراء ‏ ‏جعفر

Translation: Hadrat Ali (ra) said: I went to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) with Jafar (RA) and Zayd (ra), The Prophet said to Zayd: You are my freedman (anta Mawlay), “AT THIS ZAYD BEGAN TO HOP ON ONE LEG (HAJALA) AROUND THE PROPHET” then the Prophet said to Jafar (ra): You resemble me in my creation and my manners, at this Jafar also began to hop behind Zayd, then the Prophet said to Ali (ra): You are from me and I am from you, at this he also started to hop behind Jafar. [Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal 1:537 #857] Click Here for Scanned Page (85)

Imam al Hafidh al Bayhaqi (rah) in explanation of this hadith said:

وفي هَذَا إنْ صَحَّ دلالةٌ على جوازِ الحَجْلِ، وهو أَنْ يَرْفَعَ رِجْلاً ويَقْفِزَ على الأُخْرَى مِنَ الفَرَحِ، فالرقصُ الَّذِي يكونُ عَلَى مِثَالِهِ يكونُ مِثْلَهُ في الجوازِ. والله أعلمُ

Translation: In this (hadith) if sahih has “PROOF” and "PERMISSIBILITY" of hopping (dancing) which includes “RISING UP OR JUMPING IN STATE OF JOY” and also that of doing “RAQS” being similar to it which is also allowed – And Allah knows the best [Sunnan al Baihaqi al Kubra (15/333)]

Scholar # 1

Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti (rah) was asked for a Question “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied: How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “. . . those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Qur'an 3:191). And ‘A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as [Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed.......and the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience, Hence it is correct to stand and dance during gatherings of Dhikr and Sama according to a group of Majority of Scholars, among them being Shaykh ul-Islam Iz udin bin Abd al-Salaam.

Scholar 2#

Imam Nawawi said: “Dancing is not unlawful , unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate.And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman” [Minhaj at talibin wa `umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi edition, Pae No. 152]


Sufi dancing is not Biddah it is sunnah. Get it.

Basically this whole post was, "dancing as a form of dhikr is sunnah. Proof = dancing is halal". Lol. Just lol.

Just proof that you don't understand/comprehend what you post:

A man came to the Prophet and said, "Ya Rasulallah, the laws and conditions of Islam have become too many for me. Tell me something that I can always keep" The Prophet said: "(I am advising you in one thing:) Keep your tongue always moist with dhikrullah. (Ahmad, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, and Ibn Hibban)

[Estranged]

Now you are just misrepresenting my example.

One knee? Who said one knee?. This is what i said :---->''the younger ones are required to lower their bodies (kneel down) assuming an elderly person is standing but some Arabs in their understanding see and propagate this under Wahhabism as polytheism (Shirk) by calling it as prostration in prayer (salat) which clearly the two are distinct.''

Salafis actually do claim its a worship and call it prostration, look at all the articles online, and how does this relate to the Sahaba standing up for the prophet? That is a false equivalence

And also great strawman right there, never said Arabs hate ajamis. That's your words not mine. This is what i said ---> There are customs among Muslims like this even though some have sanctions as to their being acceptable as good or bad in Islam and must be seen as such in their context: of good or bad (sin) not blanket condemnation just because the Arabs do not practice them.


Not forcing you into any box. Saying ''hey i am not Salafi'' or telling us you do not endorse Najidi Arab islam outright is trivial and meaningless. It's like me playing football but saying hey i am not a footballer never identified as such or ''i believe Arabs are racially superior but i am not racist stop putting into box''. which is clearly contradictory if you follow a practice or ideological thinking but distance yourself from bearing the label of it that does not negate anything or make you unlike it.


Sure, there is 3 branches of Islam Sunni,Shia, Wahhabi(Salafism) .There are, however, over 150 different smaller sects of Islam in total.

Sunni Islam are broken into 4 four madhabs hanbali, maliki, shafici and hanafi.



Come on you should already know this. If you even studied Islamic theology.


The point i am making with those examples is that any culture including Arab culture has no precedence. Salafists promote Arab nationalism and Arab supremacy which i have proven by quoting Salafi scholars views in the previous post.


Why are you so reactionary and defensive, I didn't infer that you said anything. I was making a point, now you can feel free to agree to it.


In fact they do believe Arab is a master race. It's something taught in the salafi doctrine. Did you just ignore proof ive shown you because it is inconvenient to you?

You going to just ignore the example i shown of the founders and teachers of Salafiyyah like Ibn Taymiyyah and his students, Al-Albani and his students, and all other scholars of the Salaf, Who are of the belief that if you do not accept your racial inferiority to the Arabs then you are apart of Shu'ubiyyah (Modernists and Communists) and are an innovator and no longer apart of Ah'lus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

You can just google the term ''Shu'ubiyyah'' and research this for yourself they have a whole Salafi doctrine dedicated to Arab superiority and the inferiority of the ajam(non-Arabs)

Clearly this view is innovation and goes against the prophets last sermon and the message of the quran.


It's because to the Salafis , Arabized Islam is true Islam and everything else is culture and innovation. They just label the Arab version as Islam and make false distinctions.

There is huge book written on Salafism being Arabism and a form a Arab nationalism that came to be as reactionary to western colonization
The Other Frontiers of Arab Nationalism: Ibadis, Berbers, and the Arabist-Salafi Press in the Interwar Period
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40389587?s ... b_contents


The irony, Criticism does not equal prejudice,. It is not based on assumptions but rather research and information. If you are going to make allegations you fork over proof.

I know you find it hard to accept , but it is true Salafism is a heretic group of people who promote Arab nationalism.

1) Lower their bodies/kneel.. Doesn't make much difference, it's still done to show respect.

2) "Branches of Islam".. You said forms. Come on. -_-

Do you think Shi'ism is a valid 'form' of Islam?

3) No, I asked you to bring examples of Salafis promoting Arab culture and you started talking about honour killings etc. So the whole paragraph was irrelevant.

4) Maybe they believe this, I don't know. But the question is, 'do they promote it'? I haven't seen them promoting this. I'm not even sure if it's a belief they all have. Whereas the athari aqeedah, no one doubts they promote this. You can't be Salafi and not follow the athari creed. Do you see the difference?

5) It's because to the Salafis , Arabized Islam is true Islam and everything else is culture and innovation.

Great. We're just having a problem with you proving it.

6) Unjust criticism is often due to prejudice.

[gurey25]

You cannot appropriate a whole aqeeda if you do not follow it, like you took the name salafi.

Salafism /wahabiya is not athari.

Athari is the aqeeda of imam hanbal
And there are even some if the wahabiya who are against many aspects of hanbal fiqh and aqeeda.

[Thanatophiliac]

Masha -Allah. This video made my day.

May there be peace and prosperity to Muslims worldwide.

Why? There's so much bid'ah and fitnah in that video..

May Allah (Swt) return them to the pure deen.

They are practising the deen the way they have for centuries. Not this new pure deen you talk about.
There is an Islamic revival in chechnya, more and more people are becoming devout.

I've had the misfortune of interacting and engaging with people that conform to this reprehensible ideology called 'Salafism'. By far the most despicable group of mammals I've ever witnessed. They resemble a cult more than a theological revivalist group. They abhor analytical study of Scripture, any metaphorical understanding of Divinity, they are prone to violence, backward, they refuse to acknowledge intellect as a basis for interpretation.
Salafism= Protestantism on steroids.

Subhanallah!