Shiekh Xassan Turki's interview.

[American Salafi]

Murax...we agree that Turki saying "jihad" is very wrong and that takfir is wrong too...and this is why I said I do not support al-shabab, however the fundamentals of the greater ideology is more of a better approach and Islamic then what American-Salafi and the sect his follow, who you admired, believe in and proposed! Again I do not support the actions of Al-shabab nor is Turki and Amir. Lakiin in your post on this page you addressed koronto according to the ideology he has, and you coined that with al-shabab now, when he himself said al-shabab is not perfect nor does he fully support them!

We both agree on the situation in Kismayo: Fitno!

We both agree about Al-shabab: wrong in their statements and the issue of takfir!

We differ on the approach of the Salafi "Jadiid" and the ideology of rebelling against a leader and other stuff you agree with American-Salafi!

You sound confused akhi. On one hand you say that you disagree with Shabaab for their "Jihad" and "Takfir" but you also say that you differ with the approach of the Salafi "Jadiid". What is the position of the salafis on these issues? Isn't it the same things that you just posted, that this is not Jihad and making takfir upon muslims is wrong. So your not making clear what you disagree with concerning the salafis. So be specific, don't be vague. Koronto makes his beliefs clear. He beliefs in revolting against muslim governments and making Takfir upon muslims.

[sadeboi]

He beliefs in revolting against muslim governments and making Takfir upon muslims.

Exactly that, revolting against the tyrants who govern Muslim land, who befriend and work with gaalo to harm Muslims, who keep their people hostage and poor should be overthrown. Now the question I wish to ask you is which governments do you consider "Muslim Government" what is a "Muslim Government" one that governs by the shariah law, the word of allah, or a entity that consists men who Muslim?


Also, you are always badmouthing Muslim leaders, and you are always refuting actions taken by Muslims to free themselves. What do you say should be done in Somalia, should the TFG and Ethiopians be left alone to be? What? You never seem to mention what action should be taken in Somalia right now to get out of the occupation!

[Unclebin-]

sadeboi

This American Madkhali is a muqallid of his govenrment scholars in Saudi arabia.

he once argued with me about how martyrdom operations was xaraam. I brought him a video of sheik al bani talking about it's legitmacy and provided him with a reference and he said he couldn't understand arabic and brought me an english translation of sheik albani's speech which was corrupted by his madkhali cousins.

Imam al albani had a book on this and I should him a clear lecture and he refused. Because it shattered his madkhali dreams.

American pseudo-salafi

You and your murjia relatives are the slaves of al-saud. The saudi government doesn't legislate by allah's laws.

They have interest based banks, they work with the kuffar do drop bombs on Iraq and let them use their bases to kill muslims. Plus more.

Don't tell me shit. I was born in the KSA and went back on two occasions since. Your a slave of the scholars of the marines.

[Kolombo]

American Salafi-Hizbi,

Koronto makes his beliefs clear. He beliefs in revolting against muslim governments and making Takfir upon muslims.

Who are these "Muslim governments"? Certainly not governments who rule by Shari'ah, but rather governments who share the following characteristics:

1. They do not fulfil the pillars of Tawheed
2. They ridicule the deen of Allah
3. They ally with the disbelievers against Muslims
4. They adopt the deen of Democracy
5. They direct some of Allah's names and attributes to themselves
6. They legislate kufr constitutions (kufr law)

Your beloved Saudi Arabia falls under this category, because they share most if not all of the characteristics I've mentioned.

[precious_dyme]

Mashallah Kolombo continue what you're doing walaalkis.

[American Salafi]

He beliefs in revolting against muslim governments and making Takfir upon muslims.

Exactly that, revolting against the tyrants who govern Muslim land, who befriend and work with gaalo to harm Muslims, who keep their people hostage and poor should be overthrown. Now the question I wish to ask you is which governments do you consider "Muslim Government" what is a "Muslim Government" one that governs by the shariah law, the word of allah, or a entity that consists men who Muslim?


Also, you are always badmouthing Muslim leaders, and you are always refuting actions taken by Muslims to free themselves. What do you say should be done in Somalia, should the TFG and Ethiopians be left alone to be? What? You never seem to mention what action should be taken in Somalia right now to get out of the occupation!

Let me ask you a question. Is it allowed to rebel against muslim governments that are corrupt? If so, then bring your evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. Next if you don't consider, for example, the Saudi Gov. to be muslim then show me any fatawaa from the Major scholars which say they are not muslim.

This is what you don't understand. Either you consider these Governments to be muslim or you make Takfir upon them. If you believe them to be muslim but corrupt show me the evidence from the Quran and Sunnah that allows rebellion upon corrupt leaders? If you consider them to be Kuffar, then show me any major scholar that agrees with you. Jazakallah.

[American Salafi]

American Salafi-Hizbi,

Koronto makes his beliefs clear. He beliefs in revolting against muslim governments and making Takfir upon muslims.

Who are these "Muslim governments"? Certainly not governments who rule by Shari'ah, but rather governments who share the following characteristics:

1. They do not fulfil the pillars of Tawheed
2. They ridicule the deen of Allah
3. They ally with the disbelievers against Muslims
4. They adopt the deen of Democracy
5. They direct some of Allah's names and attributes to themselves
6. They legislate kufr constitutions (kufr law)

Your beloved Saudi Arabia falls under this category, because they share most if not all of the characteristics I've mentioned.

Do you always want me to repeat the same arguement with you? I'll ask you the same question I asked Sadeboi. You can post whatever you want about Saudi Arabia but here is the question, Do you consider them to be kuffar? If yes then show me any Scholar that agrees with you that Saudi Arabia is a kuffar state. If you consider them to be corrupt, show me from the Quran and Sunnah where it states that rebellion against corrupt leaders is permissible. Jazakallah.

[American Salafi]

Shaikh Saalih Uthaymeen on Saudi Arabia.



Shaikh Saalih Fawzaan on Saudi Arabia



Shaikh Saalih Uthaymeen on the Khawarij of this Era

[sadeboi]

American-salafi you did not answer the questions, so how do you expect answers from us?

What is the difference between an Islamic state govern by shariah law and the leaders were chosen according to the religion, and a state in which the entity that governs include men who claim to be Muslim?

[Kolombo]

If you consider them to be corrupt, show me from the Quran and Sunnah where it states that rebellion against corrupt leaders is permissible. Jazakallah.

Question: What are the actions which, if a Muslim does them, he will be an apostate from Islam?

Sh. Ibn Baaz:

Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)"

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

In the Tafseer of Imaam ul Qurtubi it is narrated that Ibn Abbas said:

'Fa innahu minhum' (he is one of them) means that he takes the same hukm as them i.e. that his wealth is not halal for him and he is a man of Hell-fire.

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have said, when discussing apostasy, that a Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam. Among the most serious and most common of these things are ten which were mentioned by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhaab and other scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them all). We will mention them in brief here, so that you and others can beware of them, in the hope that you will be safe and sound. We will also explain a little about them after mentioning each one.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/31807/mo ... the%20dead

Also, These governments commit shirk by committing sarf and 'ataf with Allah's names and attributes to themselves. Allah is Al-Hakam (the legislator) but they insist on playing the role of Allah by legislating kufr law (Istihlaal).

"You do not worship besides Him but only names which you have named (forged), you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him (i.e. His Monotheism), that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not. (Yusuf, 12: 40)

Abusing the use of the Shari'ah or abandoning the Shari'ah all together:

"Did you not see to those who claim that they have believed in what was revealed to you and what was revealed before you, wanting to rule according to Satan, and they had been ordered to reject him." [Qur'an 4:60]

"And judge between them with what Allah has revealed and do not follow their whims." [Qur'an 5:49]

Shaikh ul Islam Ibn Taymmya says: "It is known as a requirement of Islam, by consensus of all Muslims, that whoever wishes to follow other than Islam, and a law other than the one brought by Muhammad (saws) is a rejecter." [Majmou'ul fatawa vol. 12, page 524].

[American Salafi]

Sadeboi

What do you mean by Islamic State? There is no such thing as an Islamic State. If the country is muslim then of course there a "Islamic State". I think what you mean is does this muslim country follow the Shar'ia. If you look at the muslim rulers today, for example, Saudi Arabia. The question I believe your pointing towards is does obedience to the muslim leader only come if he establishes the Shari'a. So your applying that if the muslim leader establishes the shari'a then we can follow him and not revolt. This is wrong. Obeying the ruler in all that is good is required upon the muslims if the ruler is muslim. If he is not muslim then there comes two conditions. First, if the muslims have the ability to overthrow this murtad then its permissible but if the muslims are not capabable to do this then its not permissible.

So this comes back to my question. You and Kolombo have said that obedience to the muslim leaders only comes when they have established the Shari'a and if they have not then its permissible to revolt. So answer my question, where in the Quran and Sunnah does it allow for rebellion against corrupt leaders.

[American Salafi]

Kolombo

You have not answer my question. I said bring me a fatwaa of Takfr from the major scholars upon the Saudi Gov. Shaikh Ibn Baaz is not speaking about Saudi Arabia in that Fatwa, so go back and google another fatwa. Jazakallah.

[Kolombo]

You have not answer my question. I said bring me a fatwaa of Takfr from the major scholars upon the Saudi Gov. Shaikh Ibn Baaz is not speaking about Saudi Arabia in that Fatwa, so go back and google another fatwa. Jazakallah.

I gave you evidence from the Qur'an. Since when are fatwas more important than kalamaatul-laah?

WASHINGTON-During the Iraq war, Saudi Arabia secretly has helped the United States far more than has been acknowledged, allowing operations from at least three air bases, permitting special forces to stage attacks from Saudi soil and providing cheap fuel, U.S. and Saudi officials say.

The American air campaign against Iraq was essentially managed from inside Saudi borders, where military commanders operated an air command center and launched refueling tankers, F-16 fighter jets and sophisticated intelligence gathering flights, according to the officials.

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/25/news_ ... lp_d.shtml


What does the Qur'an say about aiding the kuffaar against Muslims?

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)"

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

In the Tafseer of Imaam ul Qurtubi it is narrated that Ibn Abbas said:

'Fa innahu minhum' (he is one of them) means that he takes the same hukm as them i.e. that his wealth is not halal for him and he is a man of Hell-fire.

Try getting out of this one.

[Murax]

Sadeboi,

Your views on these matters represent the views of Ahlus Sunnah to a T, therefore I do not see any point of contention between us. Yes what happened in Kismaayo was a fitno, between two Muslims. As for the Kuffar that came into the Country, walaalo You know very well that these Kuffar were brought in and invited. For instance in 1995, When SNF brought in Ethiopia, and a civil war broke out in Gedo between inter Marexaan groups, We cannot say Itixaad was in Jihad because the enemy had Muslims backing them up. I cannot make takfir on Ina Xaaji and say 'Well, since He used Kuffar, then He is one of them" even though I can use the logic Koronto used. The Quran is explained by three things: By itself, by the Sunnah, or by the consensus of the Sahabah. When a Muslim uses a Kaffir against another Muslim it is a major sin no doubt. However the scholars look into WHY He did what He did. If He did it out of conviction that the system of this gaal is better than the system of Islam, then He is labelled a kaffir. If He did it out of buufis, xukun doon or things of that sort then He is a fassiq, mufsid etc. Now with the TFG, AY What is the deal? I myself have heard AY and many members of this TFG say We're Muslims over and over again. They haven't made any clear statements of kuffr or disbelief in Islam, yet they use Kuffar to get power. Can We ay He's a kaffir? No. A good example of this is the Sahabi Mut'im. When the Prophet SAW was going to Makkah to retake it, He aided the Kuffar and gave them intelligence. When the Prophet asked Him WHY He did it, He said because I have some financial interests in Makkah. The prophet spared Him and let Him go. Secondly, the issue of takfir on an induvidual is ONLY for the scholars, and cannot be made by ordinairy induviduals, and certainly not Koronto.


Now the issue with rebelling against the Muslim ruler. There is a ton of proofs of this from the Sunnah, and Inshallah I'll bring them.


Unclebin,

Subxanallah do not lie about Sh Albani Raximahullah, Ilahay ka cabso


Voltage,

I didn't say one thing in condoning or being happy about what is happening in Xamar and Somalia at large, marka don't lie against Me sxb. Its a very distressing situation and May Allah help them.

[Kolombo]

....making Takfir upon muslims.

Sh. Ibn Uthaymeen:

For the judgement of the takfir of a Muslim, there are two conditions: The first, that the evidence that this matter is something that expels from the religion is established. The second, the application of the ruling upon the one who does that, in that he has knowledge of it and that he intends it (aaliman bidhaalik qaasidan lahu).

(Majmoo al-Fataawaa, 2/125-126).

"The first, that the evidence that this matter is something that expels from the religion is established."

In this particular case, this verse in the Qur'an is the evidence that if done, a Muslim will be expelled from the religion of Islam:

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)"

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

The Ibn Saud family are guilty of aiding the kuffaar over the decades. Let's not forget that it was Abdal-aziz Ibn Saud who was aided by the British government to overthrow the Ottoman Muslim rulers.