The true Black Hawk Down: To MAD MAC

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Mohawk
The reality is there is not going to be any reconcilliation in Somalia that freezes out the power players. We can lamment this, but it is reality. As for the present, if you want to work in Somalia, you must work with warlords. There is no other way. Again, it may be lamentable, but it is also unavoidable.

Make no mistake, I am not suggesting that America is the solution to Somalias future problems. Only that perhaps it can assist in facillitating a solution. America has its own interests, and those interests will take priority every time. That is life. That is how all states operate. Again, you can lament it, but that will never change. You may as well lament the existence of stone.

[Mowhawk]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Mohawk
The reality is there is not going to be any reconcilliation in Somalia that freezes out the power players. We can lamment this, but it is reality. As for the present, if you want to work in Somalia, you must work with warlords. There is no other way. Again, it may be lamentable, but it is also unavoidable.

Make no mistake, I am not suggesting that America is the solution to Somalias future problems. Only that perhaps it can assist in facillitating a solution. America has its own interests, and those interests will take priority every time. That is life. That is how all states operate. Again, you can lament it, but that will never change. You may as well lament the existence of stone.[/quote]

Mad Mac

Exactly, alhough my initial question was hypothetical, but you have relayed to me what already I knew, the interest of the U.S.G, and that is why I never supported it.

The solution lies with us Somalis, and it seems those of us in the diaspora are in a deep hibernation. All we talk about Somalia is the one we left behind and not the current one, and that is one reason why we are stuck to that emotional past clock. Till we abandon that, there won't be peace and living a dignified life for most Somalis in Somalia.

Like Screw, I'm an optimist that things will change for the positive in my life time.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Mohawk
Alas, I can not share your optimism. Somalias conflict is mired in personal greed. That greed is aggravated by fear - fear of going from rich (or relatively rich) to poor, in a place where poverty means a short and painful life. The reason the warlords do not get together and sing Kumbaya is because they would all rather be big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. That dynamic is not likely to change and certainly not likely to change without outside assistance. And the problem is, that with the exception of MAD MAC, no non-Somalis give a shit about Somalia. Ethiopia and Kenya care, but only in as much as it affects their own states. So, I think Somalia for the short run is doomed. Maybe, eventually, some aspect of the feudal dynamic will change. Maybe a warlord will amass enough power to actually win and consolidate power. Maybe.....

[AbdiWahab252]

I hate to say it, but Whitey has a point.

No one really cares about Somalia's prosperity if we don't do anything to salvage it.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

I guess that's sort of a compliment.

[AbdiWahab252]

Of course u Kaffir

[michael_ital]

Now the discussion is heating up a little. lets see how long it can continue.

[optimist_1]

[quote="MAD MAC"]OK let's clear a few things up here:

a. The US and UN went into Somalia because of the famine. Not because of some fabulous, untapped natural resources.
[/quote]

Alot of somalis were saying they digged up hills.Several hills were missing when the US left. Who done it

[kambuli]

Optimist_1,

Was it a heresay or there is some truth about Bacaadkii Marka????


Abdiwahab252, I agree with you 100%

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Hills were missing? Is this a joke? This sounds like the Somali woman in Germany who told me the US went into Somalia to steal the sand because Somalia has the best sand for making glass.

The reason we deployed to Somalia is easy: CNN. Unfortunately for the USG, CNN was beaming back a steady diet of starving African kids. That went on until the hue and cry to "do something" was irreseistable. MAD MAC and his colleagues were the something.

Even if you postulate that the real reason was for the eventual exploitation of natural resources, we simply weren't in country long enough to do that. Somali has some uranium in Bur Hakaba, and the other reserves we already discussed. There just wasn't enough time to mine the uranium ore or exploit the oil and gas reserves.

But alas, that wasn't what was driving the train in 93. It was good, ol' fashion media pressure (the same thing that eventually got us into Bosnia in 95).

[optimist_1]

The number of people that knew about it makes its different from heresay but i really didn't see it with my eyes. Once they finished they packed up. The militias just gave them kick while leaving. Also whats so weird that number of soldiers that were xamar.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Could you enlighten me as to where these magic hills were located? Maybe Jack's beanstalk beans were there and we were out to steal them from the Somali people.

[optimist_1]

i cant be specific shabeellaha provinces and hiiran and bay

[Kamal35]

My perception is that Somalia won't be helped if Somalia doesn't want to be helped. I mean: Nobody is going to visit the country if the only reply you can have from Somalis is "If you come here, kuffir, we'll kill you".

That's really stupid, because there are a lot of countries, mainly the so-hated Western democracies which, by law, have the compromise in their Constitutions to help countries suffering from starvation, drougths or civil wars. That's the reason European Union, Australia, Canada are sending troops (mainly peacemaker soldiers), doctors and hospital teams to Afghanistan, Sri Lanka or Puerto Principe. Just imagine that, after the Tsunami, the European Union sends troops and doctors to help and coordinate efforts in order to save people, and this doctors and soldiers are killing in ambushes because the Sri Lanka people doesn't like foreigners.

Somalia seems to be a case like that. I always thought that the USA Gov crossed the red line trying to get some advantage and settling there some military bases and all that. Yeah to that.

But, as Mad Mac says: it was not the whole paint. It was not the whole strategy to settle down there, to invade the country and to have military bases in Somalia. If the USA Government wanted to have this, simplely, instead a withdrawal, they would be staying there, even if Atomic Bombs were neccesary. If they USA troops left it was because they thought it wasn't worthy to help the Somali people at such as cost. Somalis thought they won.

It's a lie.

They lost.

I can see here day in and day out. Somalis feel so proud of being muslims. And being muslims seems to be the most important thing in the world. While being muslim is just a condition for a individual. You can't hate nobody for being muslim in the same way you can't hate anyone for being blond. But there's a radical system here in which, if you're not muslim, you deserve to die. If you're not muslim, you are not welcome to Somalia.

That's shit.

I remember a Somali friend of mine who went to a Feminist Convention in Pakistan. Feminists from all over the world had this convention. Feminists women wanted to talk about the situation of women all over the world. Suddenly, when my Somali friend was talking about the situation in Somalia, the need of looking for water-sources, some American girl raised her hand and asked if Somali girls could wear "jeans". There was a general laugh. "We are in war time", my Somali friend replied. "Even European girls don't ask, in war time, which is the best lipstick".

That's what's happening in Somalia: Somalis are asking about the colour of the lipstick: "Are you muslim or not?" "What clan do you belong to?".

Instead worrying about Somalia, they're discussing about if you are muslim or atheist, about if your this or that. About if you like this or that..

Could you call it Somali proud? I could call it Somali stupidity. If someone is dying because he was shot, you don't administrate him an Aspirine to avoid his headache.

But hey, the most of Somalis here, they feel so proud of killing Western people who went there to help.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Just to San'a. Why do you ask?