Somalia should embrace communism

[abdikarim86]

abdikarim, so you support a top down approach where the federal government has the role of alocating resources for the local states, districts?

gurey, 25%? what portion would go to the feds ideally? and the companies..

A federal government giving grants from it's budget to local governments I have no problem with.
and to an extent I don't have a problem with feds controlling central/important resources until
an equitable solution is found.

I do have a problem with a federal government interfering in the affairs of a region/district including
Health and education.

I basically believe a central/federal government should concern it with administration
and regulation and leave implementation to the locals.

[gurey25]

Then do we let legislature's interfere with law or do we do away with legislatures altogather.
I find the idea of a law making body of elected folks quite disturbing.

I have absolutely no problem with an elected government, it's just the idea of a law making legislature
I have trouble with.

What would be an equitable solution in your opinion?

Well we used to live happily with our elders in charge of our xeer customary laws since they incorporated shareeca
our ancestors lived under shareeca..

As long us they follow the shareeca a guide , it should be a problem.
and as long as they have the culemaa as a guide too.

I havea bigger feer of the shia idea of wilayet el fiqh i,e rule by culema
this is unislamic... and is the road to priesthood.

The reason why islam is so attractive to so many people is the lack of preisthood.

[abdikarim86]

Then do we let legislature's interfere with law or do we do away with legislatures altogather.
I find the idea of a law making body of elected folks quite disturbing.

I have absolutely no problem with an elected government, it's just the idea of a law making legislature
I have trouble with.

What would be an equitable solution in your opinion?

Well we used to live happily with our elders in charge of our xeer customary laws since they incorporated shareeca
our ancestors lived under shareeca..

As long us they follow the shareeca a guide , it should be a problem.
and as long as they have the culemaa as a guide too.

I havea bigger feer of the shia idea of wilayet el fiqh i,e rule by culema
this is unislamic... and is the road to priesthood.

The reason why islam is so attractive to so many people is the lack of preisthood.

In fact the other day I was almost boasting to a catholic friend of our lack of an organised clergy/preisthood
You are right about the wilayet e fiqh, it is definately out there and seems to contradict Islam.

Ho can interpraters/discoverers of law (i.e. the fuqaha) rule?
It seems very wrong

[gurey25]

abdikarim, so you support a top down approach where the federal government has the role of alocating resources for the local states, districts?

gurey, 25%? what portion would go to the feds ideally? and the companies..

25% is just a figure off the top f my head.

It can be anything..

My idea is that this should not go to the Feds directly.
There should be an intermediatary between them, something like a Waqf

The shares of the states and the feds would be outlined in the charter of the waqf in detail.

the tax should be like the australian tax on companies which is 35% of profits..
and companies should be made to invest in infrastructure as an offset..

[globetrotter2]

Good inputs from all of you. Gurey,I gather your knowledge of economics is limited. Riba (usery) is no longer in usage. Interest rates are the cost of capital; in essense investment yields and you cannot have a world functioning without it. Some so called muslim countries do not like the word and use "costs" "fees" etc. In the somali case, the Hawalas take interest rates (bordering usery). So, it is not our major problem.

As regards, the cost of running a government; you need a tax system that is easy to implement and that as you said needs strong institutions that take time to build. To be sincere, somalis and taxation are like fire and water. Even diaspora somalis do not like paying it. Property taxes are easier but corruption consumes it. You remain with payroll taxes and that neccessiates employment .

Thank you all,

As regards, the ideal mode of governance, some of you have mentioned islamism. This utopic dream never materialises. It will remain a discourse rather than reality.

The federal state system in somalia will not work simply because you will have as someone mentioned earlier in this thread thousands of federal states in a town like Hargeisa.

Communism never failed somalia. As a matter of fact, somalia was flourishing (politically at least) 1970-1977 when it embraced scientific socialism.

On the other hand, I fully agree that alien ideologies are not that good; but here, satan will argue that even islam is an alien ideology.

Capitalism parse is not a bad thing; but somalia needs unity and allocation of resources; the economic problem is always based on efficiency and allocation (read equity). The somali war is also a question of equity and in my opinion only communism is the answer.

We need to explore how we somalis can move forward. Tribalism is the cancer here. Don't feed us your nonsense that tribalism fills a function; that tribalism could be used; that tribalism colours every aspect of our lives; that is purely nonsense. Tribalism is a primitive mode of governance; it has killed our society and is killing it, IT is not based on scientific facts. It is making somalis to base all their intellectual capital into it.

We need to fight this disease; and if it is communism that will kill it; I will take it

[grandpakhalif]

Only Islam shall be our legislation, mass democracy without shura is kufr, communism is kufr and anything short of sharia is kufr. Do you want Somalia to be a state that executes its Caalims, similair to the matyrdom during Barre's regime? No! We want sharia!

[globetrotter2]

Only Islam shall be our legislation, mass democracy without shura is kufr, communism is kufr and anything short of sharia is kufr. Do you want Somalia to be a state that executes its Caalims, similair to the matyrdom during Barre's regime? No! We want sharia!

And the benchmark is saudi arabia I guess!

That is a horrible prophecy; religion and state should be seperated. Siad Barre might have executed 11 religious leaders, but your friends the al-sheydhaans have executed more. Even the dead did not escape their wrath.

[Grant]

"The federal state system in somalia will not work simply because you will have as someone mentioned earlier in this thread thousands of federal states in a town like Hargeisa."

"Communism never failed somalia. As a matter of fact, somalia was flourishing (politically at least) 1970-1977 when it embraced scientific socialism."

Wow,,,,,,,,

[globetrotter2]

"The federal state system in somalia will not work simply because you will have as someone mentioned earlier in this thread thousands of federal states in a town like Hargeisa."

"Communism never failed somalia. As a matter of fact, somalia was flourishing (politically at least) 1970-1977 when it embraced scientific socialism."

Wow,,,,,,,,

And you point is what Mr. Grant? There is no contradiction in those two sentences.

[Grant]

Gobetrotter, I don't really expect this to help, but note that the number of tribes generally considered to require representation at the national level is 4.5. You could achieve that with four states and a large federal district. Or a few more states. The federal state in Hargeisa would be Somaliland.

1970-77 was the Russian period. The state farms provided some great photo ops, but did nothing at all to change domestic agriculture. Barre enjoyed political success because of the concept of Somaliweyn, but when bait turned to switch in 1977, the military aid disappeared in the mud at Jigjiga, and it was all downhill from there. Cayd is a form of borrowing or subsidization; It does not necessarily equate to progress. In the Somali example, it merely provided the means for the state to destroy itself.

[ciyaal_warta]

Islam cannot eradicate the cancer called tribalism. Capitalism has failed us.

Only communism can replace the god of somalis aka tribalism.

Below is the communist manifesto of Engels and Marx. The preamble reminds me of contemporary somalia. Any students of Hegel out there?


http://www.myoops.org/cocw/mit/NR/rdonl ... ifesto.pdf

if we gona embrace every philosophy that jumps out of nowhere we would be muslims by now

[gurey25]

It could be argues that the state farms and attempt at "scientific socialism"
was responsible for the destruction of somalias agricultural potential.

we could feed ourselves in the 60s by the 70s we were dependant on food aid.

[globetrotter2]

Dear Grant,
I wish it could be as simple as saying 4,5! You are perhaps not familiar with the complex structures of somali tribalism. A deeper analysis shows that these 4,5 suddenly becomes 25, then 200, then 600, then 2000. Somali tribalism is like a virus that mutates. There is no end only the begining; 1 somali, 4,5 tribes, 9000000 subtribes, a billion clans, and 5trillion subclans.

We have to a nation that is free from the unit of tribalism. That is my main point. I am not against federalism if that is based on geography or demographies (note; no tribalism).

The issue of somalia and communism is not as dark as it is painted. Ask any somali and he/she will give you a nostalgic analysis of this period. Communism is good as a stablising factor; it substitutes religions. We need a short term approach in somalia.

Gurey 25, It was not communism that caused somalia's demise. It was when we abandoned it following the war with ethiopia; in the absence of knowledge of other forms of governance and the onset of tribalism and an expensive war, Somalia entered a period of decline.

But that is not the issue; let us not debate the reasons why somalia failed but how we can get the country moving.

[Grant]

Globetrotter,

Understand your history, or repeat it.

[Salah Al-Din]

Grant you don't seem to understand history either thinking Somaliland is going to form a federal state with Somalia. Gurey and I were discussing federal/confederal vs unitary based on Somaliland's experience. It was in parallel to what would be appropriate with Somalia. Let's not confuse the two shall we.