The REAL Truth in Iraq

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

I don't believe that. It isn't even our stated policy. Our stated policy is that the US military will protect US interests, economic or otherwise.

[avowedly-agnostic]

" It's not based on imperialism or democracy. It's based on protecting US interests and finding and killing those who want to attack US interests. "

On the contrary, it's the US that's attacking and threatening at the barrel of a gun the national interest of sovereign countries.

You make my point, your concern is not democracy, but imperialism.

The other grotesque neo-cons like Bush D!ck & Rummy disguise their imperialist ambitions with pretexts such as spreading democracy, but I like you MAD, you're an honest straight talking capitalist who doesn't mince his words.

But US imperialism is being thrown off in South America as the continent turns RED by the day with the rise of mass movements like the one which brought Morales to power sticking two fingers at the US and refusing to be kept under the heel of Uncle Sam.

[avowedly-agnostic]

May the Bolivarian Revolution continue to spread like wildfire throughout South America & the rest of the world.

The days of US imperialism and exploitation are numbered.

Long live the Bolivarian Revolution!

[gurey25]

Bolivarian revolution will fail.
its becuase of the way its bieng done.

Chavez like castro concentrates too much power to himself,
for the revolution to succeed , he should be pushing ideas, creating institutions.

chavez will be taken care of discretly by venezualans with CIA support sooner or later.

and Cuba will become a capitalist playground of the US,
ripe with outof control prostitution, Gambling and drugs and ruled by corrupt oligarchs, who are loyal pets of America.


the writing is on the wall
people always make the same mistake, power is simply to seductive

[Lord Diplock]

I lost interest in following the news emanating from Baghdad long time ago, this apathetic view was brought about by the insane slaughtering of human beings by what I can call and I hasten to add, beasts of the jungle.

The daily carnage/s, the incredulous sight of a bus ferrying a group of school children just reduced to a small piles of metals and other daily killings

I have never been so exasperated by news reports before in my life. I was hoping (Mad Mac, we're not all the same) Iraq to succeed. The removal of Saddam Hussein was hoped by many to usher a new beginning, an end to the fascist regime that f*cker so arrogantly led. The subsequent, nihilistic violence of some (especially foreign suicide bombers) have shattered that illusory notion. The never ending atrocities killed it.

I have given up on Iraq sadly. You dont need to read the latest from Baghdad, the reality is all clear to see. Civil war is under way and thousands will perish in the coming years.

Kind regards

[avowedly-agnostic]

Gurey I expect to hear "Chavez is a dictator" by ignorant right wing Americans who've no appreciation for truth, but I thought you knew better- evidently not.

The Bolivarian Revolution is being spread .

There's an awful lot of cooperation and assistence taking place such as Venezuela selling cheap oil to Cuba, with Cuba in return sending tens of thousands of doctors, teachers and other professionals (because they can afford to) to remote parts of Venezuela to provide free literacy and healthcare.

And the Bolivarian Revolution is spreading throughout South America with more states joining Cuba, Bolivia and Venezuela such as Uraguay, Brazil, Argentina and others (who my mind won't allow me to remember) to cooperate with one another and to build financial institutions to rival those of the US.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

I have a good friend of mine who's Cuban (from the dance scene). He says the people are totally repressed. You can't criticize the government or you get thrown in jail. The economy is terrible and mismanaged and it's centrally controlled. He came to Germany, applied for political asylum, and it was granted.

Avowedly
You think that socialism helps people, but it doesn't. And if you think Chavez is some sort of good guy, you are in for a rude awakening.

[Gedo_Boy]

MAD MAC,

Maybe they are repressed or poor b/c of policies directed against them.

What's the solution?

America says "let us exploit your resources, economy & market, you'll be making pennies on the dollar, but at least your people will eat"

If they don't follow that, supporting violent dissident groups, sanctions & all sorts of economic bullying occurs.......the common man doesn' t see that, he only sees his govt. cracking down because of the decrease in law 'n order (secretly being encouraged/financed by the US)......he only sees repression, maybe some corruption b/c of the dire straits.....

That's the story all over the world.......so what's the point of these terms like 'liberal democracy', 'free market', 'privatization' when it only works to the benefit of the powerful.


The powerful countries talk about 'free market' as long as it suits them, and then do things like slap tariffs when it doesn't suit them.

So, why blame these countries who want to nationalize & work for their own people, if it's throught Socialism, FINE. At least their people won't have to chose between education/health care or paying some multinational corporation BILLIONS of dollars in profits.


Maybe South America doesn't want to fall for the HOAX of the Western world like Africa.......

& they have the audacity to hold a conference on forgiving Africa's debt......when some of those countries have paid the original debt many times over in interest.


God knows how much unaccounted resources/assets have left Africa........why don't they ever add that into the balance sheet?

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Maybe they are repressed or poor b/c of policies directed against them.

In most cases nations that are poor and have bad governance have those problems because they have the work habits of three toed sloths.

"America says "let us exploit your resources, economy & market, you'll be making pennies on the dollar, but at least your people will eat" "

America doesn't say that. America is doing what EVERYONE is doing. American buisinesses look for the best deals, work to make the best arrangements to support their interests. The US government is only going to intervene with force on very rare occassions. We are not in the buisiness of toppling heads of state simply for economic gain.

"If they don't follow that, supporting violent dissident groups, sanctions & all sorts of economic bullying occurs.......the common man doesn' t see that, he only sees his govt. cracking down because of the decrease in law 'n order (secretly being encouraged/financed by the US)......he only sees repression, maybe some corruption b/c of the dire straits..... "

Again, this is hyperbole. And you talk of the US as if it were different from any other country. The US acts the same way as ALL STATES.

"That's the story all over the world.......so what's the point of these terms like 'liberal democracy', 'free market', 'privatization' when it only works to the benefit of the powerful."

They work for everyone, but not always. The world is anarchic, so there is no alternative.

"The powerful countries talk about 'free market' as long as it suits them, and then do things like slap tariffs when it doesn't suit them. "

This is true. That is why I think the WTO needs to have set rules which prohibit any member states from using any tarifs whatsoever. Imported goods may not be taxed, ever. Only once that good is in the shop, can a shop be required to pay tax, and that tax must be the same whether or not it is for imported or domestic goods.

"So, why blame these countries who want to nationalize & work for their own people, if it's throught Socialism, FINE. At least their people won't have to chose between education/health care or paying some multinational corporation BILLIONS of dollars in profits."

No profits, no future investment. Think about it. The billions in profits are mostly used to reinvest, not to live fat (although the certainly live fat). Socialist economies drag down everyone. High tax rates work as investment disincentives. Do you want to know why I am moving to Thailand? Because it's cheap. The tax rate is low. Simple.

"Maybe South America doesn't want to fall for the HOAX of the Western world like Africa....... "

Maybe south American leaders are scapegoating the US for political profit.

"& they have the audacity to hold a conference on forgiving Africa's debt......when some of those countries have paid the original debt many times over in interest."

Most of those countries NEVER paid their debts or close to it. Give me a break. Paid many times over. Yeah, right. African countries have defaulted so many times it's laughable.

[The rebel]

[quote="MAD MAC"]Like I said, ask Rebel.

We'll see how this shakes out. But one thing I do know, Iran is cruising for a bruising. I would not be surprised if Tehran got nuked within 5 years.[/quote]

Sometimes we ally ourselves with nasty people. The example; Americans(Now) and in the past Former Sovet and others too, who makes your list look like well-mannered schoolchildren.

It is a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. We know Iran wont like Arab whatever that Arab is Christian, Shia or Sunni. What Shia in Iraq doing called "my enemy's enemy is my friend" Which I totaly disagree and wont work in long term.

I always wonder where were America when several hundred thousand Kurds were slaughtered and about the same number of Shia. But the usa did not look the other way. It knew what was happening during the Iran-Iraq war and yet it chose to support Iraq with military intel and subsidies, not to mention the reflagging of Kuwaiti ships in the gulf.

Reagan knew Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iran but he kept on giving military intel on Iranian positions which helped Saddam slaughter the Iranians more efficiently. Even later on in the 1980s, when Saddam was using the same brutality to suppress a Kurdish rebellion and bulldozing their villages afterwards, Reagan continued to support them by blocking a strong resolution in the Security Council and blocking sanctions at the Human Rights Commission.

Reagan believed that the strategic interests outweighed the humanitarian ones. Iraq had the potential, in his view, to be a strong strategic partner in the region and he worried that if Iran prevailed, they would tip the strategic balance.

Then in the 1990s, Iraq invaded yet another country - Kuwait. Much to his surprise, the us Pres Bush, did not support him any more. For once the us was on the right side and vigorously set a new precedent for multi-lateral intervention.

After Saddam was put back in his box, the first President Bush hinted that he would support a Kurdish and Shia uprising to topple Saddam. First the Shias rebelled. They were slaughtered mercilessly right in front of American troops, who were under firm orders not to intervene!!


Democracy my ass.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Rebel
If you are oppossed to Democracy, can I take it you favor fascisim?

[The rebel]

What democracy you are talking about? Your double stander democracy to suck our bloods? If that the democracy shove it into your butt.

We have Islam and we want to be rulled in Islam. You can keep your fake democracy to your self. Thank you.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Rebel
I don't want to piss in your wheaties, but Islam is not a form of government. If you know something the rest of us don't, please inform me. Islam has a extensive (but not comprehensive) form of laws, but not of governance.

There are, fundamentally, two forms of government:

Representative
Dictatorial

Pick one.

[The rebel]

Huh you think so? Keep bla blaing in you late 40s. Let me know when you pass your late teen age crisis. Then I may take you seriously.

You better to to tit for tat with LH.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

Good answer kid. Yeah, brilliant post.