I dare 2 say Ahmed Gurey was not Somali

[Twisted_Logic]

Twisted,

Good comments, harvel sources could have been the same as you have qouted, he was likely another careless, superficial european satisfied with his own limited understanding even when the facts are not complicated.

Not just that. The Harvel guy is very suspect. I have yet to see any other work done by him. I will really appreciate if some-one can post some of his other work.

[James Dahl]

James,

There are historical documents proving Hawiye presence as far as Harar. They are mentioned to be Karanle Hawiye. I can dig it up for you if you are really interested.

I certainly am! I don't know nearly enough as I'd like about the Hawiye clans outside of the mighty Gorgaate branch.

[Twisted_Logic]

James,

There are historical documents proving Hawiye presence as far as Harar. They are mentioned to be Karanle Hawiye. I can dig it up for you if you are really interested.

I certainly am! I don't know nearly enough as I'd like about the Hawiye clans outside of the mighty Gorgaate branch.

The Hawiyah are doubtless of ancient and pagan origin; they call all Somal except themselves Hashiyah, and thus claim to be equivalent to the rest of the nation. Some attempt, as usual, to establish a holy origin, deriving themselves like the Shaykhash from the Caliph Abubekr: the antiquity, and consequently the Pagan origin of the Hawiyah are proved by its present widely scattered state; it is a powerful tribe in the Mijjarthayn country, and yet is found in the hills of Harar.

FIRST FOOTSTEPS IN EAST AFRICA; OR, AN EXPLORATION OF HARAR. BY RICHARD F. BURTON

http://hiderefer.com/?http://hiderefer. ... td23da.pdf

[James Dahl]

James,

There are historical documents proving Hawiye presence as far as Harar. They are mentioned to be Karanle Hawiye. I can dig it up for you if you are really interested.

I certainly am! I don't know nearly enough as I'd like about the Hawiye clans outside of the mighty Gorgaate branch.

The Hawiyah are doubtless of ancient and pagan origin; they call all Somal except themselves Hashiyah, and thus claim to be equivalent to the rest of the nation. Some attempt, as usual, to establish a holy origin, deriving themselves like the Shaykhash from the Caliph Abubekr: the antiquity, and consequently the Pagan origin of the Hawiyah are proved by its present widely scattered state; it is a powerful tribe in the Mijjarthayn country, and yet is found in the hills of Harar.

FIRST FOOTSTEPS IN EAST AFRICA; OR, AN EXPLORATION OF HARAR. BY RICHARD F. BURTON

http://hiderefer.com/?http://hiderefer. ... td23da.pdf

Ah I read that.
I believe that Hashiyah refers to Xaashi, great-great-grandfather of Samaale. Samaale Hiil Waliid Looxaan Xaashi.
Interesting about the reference to claiming descent from Abu Bakr, I haven't seen that purported ancestry. I know that Sheekhaal are descended matrilinearly from Abu Bakr, maybe that's what he was talking about.
Most Arabian-origin claims for Samaale's lineage make Xaashi's ancestry into Cabdiraxmaan ibn Axmed ibn Xubli ibn Mahdi ibn Muusa ibn Aqil ibn Abu Talib.

[The_Emperior5]

I still don’t get why some people would even think that emir nur is merehaan how can he be merehaan if iebrahiem ismacil jabarti lived in1404. and they say Emir nur is the man the reer nur are from of the merehaan marka that means that Iebrahien ismacil jabarti.must have fathered Emir nur, but how is that possible Emir nur lived in the 15 century just 100 year before the father who fatherd all the Darods., how is that possible that will tell you know way , Imam axmed iebrahien al ghazi could have been merehaan.

[James Dahl]

I still don’t get why some people would even think that emir nur is merehaan how can he be merehaan if iebrahiem ismacil jabarti lived in1404. and they say Emir nur is the man the reer nur are from of the merehaan marka that means that Iebrahien ismacil jabarti.must have fathered Emir nur, but how is that possible Emir nur lived in the 15 century just 100 year before the father who fatherd all the Darods., how is that possible that will tell you know way , Imam axmed iebrahien al ghazi could have been merehaan.

Isma'il Ibrahim Abd al-Samad al-Zabidi al-Jabarti al-Aqili never lived in East Africa, though he is distantly related to Darood.
His honorific "al-Jabarti" means that his ancestors did live in East Africa however, which means that the Aqili lineage of which Darood belongs must have been in East Africa for at least two centuries prior to Darood. This could explain the Samaale lineage to Aqil, if a daughter of one of these ancestors married Xaashi.

The possible ancestor this could have been would be Abd al-Rahman b. Muhammed b. Hanbal b. Mahdi b. Ahmed b. Abd Allah b. Muhammed b. 'Aqil, as this very roughly rationalizes the genealogies.

[ky2008]

James, what you need to know is that for an oral tradition to be accepted it has to be wide spread.For that reason a single person's naration is not acceptable.
What I mean is that all the geneologies beyond Irir are not to taken sereously.Names such as Looxaan, Samaale and Hiil etc are not true names but what has been fabricated by some European travellers in order to keep their copy right.
As for what you said that it was the Madhibaans who the author of al-Fatuh was refering when he mentioned the Hawiye clan is baseless because there are Hawiye around Imey who are called Haskul Hawiye and there are also another Hawiye clan by the name Karanle who are found in El-kare in Ethiopian.
The name Hashiya which appeared in the book that was written by R.Burton is the corruption form of Aji.

[guryasame]

James dahl:

Can u give us the sources for ur claim 1. Sheikh isxaq and Al-Kowneyn may Allah be pleased with them, were closely related and even more baffling were contempranous. 2. That L- kowneyn was the founder of the Wali As'hama dynasty.

I hope u have something besides the manaqibs, which I.M. Lewis mentions, the spiritual literature deals with realities more profound and more important xaqa'iqs (realities) then blood relations and other worldly relations which we are discussing on these boards, they are forbidden to be used by the uninitiated but in the context of the rigorous spiritual training in the tariqas. Its a fundamental tenent that is commonly known, this is why the wahhabi use in their propaganda against the tariqas is considered as ignorant, out of context intrusion. Something commonly known from the tariqas is that Al-kowneyn is one of the principal saints that sheikh ishaq inherited the land from. But since we are not dealing with matters beyond our scope, please elaorate further. I am not disparagin, If u have other sources dispel my ignorance and I really would like to learn about this since u have repeated it several times

[James Dahl]

James, what you need to know is that for an oral tradition to be accepted it has to be wide spread.For that reason a single person's naration is not acceptable.
What I mean is that all the geneologies beyond Irir are not to taken sereously.Names such as Looxaan, Samaale and Hiil etc are not true names but what has been fabricated by some European travellers in order to keep their copy right.
As for what you said that it was the Madhibaans who the author of al-Fatuh was refering when he mentioned the Hawiye clan is baseless because there are Hawiye around Imey who are called Haskul Hawiye and there are also another Hawiye clan by the name Karanle who are found in El-kare in Ethiopian.
The name Hashiya which appeared in the book that was written by R.Burton is the corruption form of Aji.

That's possible, but Ajiye doesn't really sound much like Hashiye.
You're right about the Haskul and Karanle, that is a very strong possibility, probably more so than Maxamed Gorgaate. Haskul and Karanle are both Habar Arbeera, the Arab or Harari wife of Hawiye, while Gorgaate are Habar Giirey. the Cushite wife of Hawiye, and in this time this was a rather stark division as Habar Giirey lived in the south and Habar Arbeera in the north, Habar Arbeera lived in the Adal Empire and Habar Giirey in the Ajuuran Empire.

Many more mysteries to solve in regards to the pre-Irir genealogies, that's for sure.

[ky2008]

This statement kills those who use to argue that Imam Ahmed-gurey was Marehan.Read here.

''The army camped around the city (Harar; my own barracks), with each tribe being kept apart from the others. The tribe of the Marraihan was, however, wavering. Their chieftain was a man fond of intrigue and procrastination. Extremely wily, he loved double-dealing and swindles. The imam organised some of his soldiers and went to the Marraihan and confronted Hirabu and his tribe and said to him: 'Why are you lagging behind in coming on the jihad? Hirabu complained about his plight, and excused himself on the grounds of his poverty-stricken state.

The imam accepted his excuse, and then said to him: 'But no good will come to you from just wishing (that things will improve). Thereupon Hirabu appointed his nephew to command the Marraihan and they rallied around the imam -ninety cavalry and more than seven-hundred footsoldiers- with Hirabu bringing up the rear. The imam went back to his city of Harar, taking the tribe of Marraihan with him.''

The pronoun "his" was used for Hirabu and excluded the Imam from belonging to the Marehans.

[Voltage]

Twisted it has already been established that the Futah is but a single source, inconsistent and not academic, that should serve as a single individual's narration and should be taken as a source and not the source for the wars of those years. In any case, this proves even more why the research should be strengthened.

If you spent half the time you did trying to proof the Imam was not Marehan (even though Abgal is nowhere to be seen in the annals of those history) as opposed to actually trying to document the whole movement and help shed complete light on, we might actually get there.

[James Dahl]

James dahl:

Can u give us the sources for ur claim 1. Sheikh isxaq and Al-Kowneyn may Allah be pleased with them, were closely related and even more baffling were contempranous. 2. That L- kowneyn was the founder of the Wali As'hama dynasty.

I hope u have something besides the manaqibs, which I.M. Lewis mentions, the spiritual literature deals with realities more profound and more important xaqa'iqs (realities) then blood relations and other worldly relations which we are discussing on these boards, they are forbidden to be used by the uninitiated but in the context of the rigorous spiritual training in the tariqas. Its a fundamental tenent that is commonly known, this is why the wahhabi use in their propaganda against the tariqas is considered as ignorant, out of context intrusion. Something commonly known from the tariqas is that Al-kowneyn is one of the principal saints that sheikh ishaq inherited the land from. But since we are not dealing with matters beyond our scope, please elaorate further. I am not disparagin, If u have other sources dispel my ignorance and I really would like to learn about this since u have repeated it several times

Certainly. The lineage of both Yuusuf al-Kawnayn and of the royalty of Adal are both recorded for posterity, and can both be found in this book:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=P5AZyEh ... q#PPA91,M1

Sheikh Isaaq's lineage is also recorded for posterity, and when I compared the two, they both have the same father. In fact, Sheikh Yuusuf's lineage is slightly more complete and allowed me to add in a few missing generations on the Isaaq genealogy.

[Voltage]

This statement kills those who use to argue that Imam Ahmed-gurey was Marehan.Read here.

''The army camped around the city (Harar; my own barracks), with each tribe being kept apart from the others. The tribe of the Marraihan was, however, wavering. Their chieftain was a man fond of intrigue and procrastination. Extremely wily, he loved double-dealing and swindles. The imam organised some of his soldiers and went to the Marraihan and confronted Hirabu and his tribe and said to him: 'Why are you lagging behind in coming on the jihad? Hirabu complained about his plight, and excused himself on the grounds of his poverty-stricken state.

The imam accepted his excuse, and then said to him: 'But no good will come to you from just wishing (that things will improve). Thereupon Hirabu appointed his nephew to command the Marraihan and they rallied around the imam -ninety cavalry and more than seven-hundred footsoldiers- with Hirabu bringing up the rear. The imam went back to his city of Harar, taking the tribe of Marraihan with him.''

The pronoun "his" was used for Hirabu and excluded the Imam from belonging to the Marehans.

Another despicable tribalist.

He is more concerned that the Futah author insinuates the Imam was not Marehan as opposed to saluting the central important role Marehan Somali played in the war against the Xabasho which is so enshrined even in the excerpts posted by Twisted.

[Babygirl-]

Leave my Awoowe alone people.

[guryasame]

James dahl,

Anything besides the manaqibs which is used by I M Lewis.