The Greatest General in the History of mankind.

[bareento]

Mainstein and other so called German generals' fame is much hyped.
If one analyses their strategy its empty: their fame is made in beating disorganized France.
Their so called innovation, the BlitzKrieg was effective, only as long as they had technological superiority: Poland with a 19th century army(1939), a disorganized France (1940) and early stages in Russian Campain (1941-1942) with a disorganized and poorly armed Red Army .

In contrast, the Red Army's retreat, resistance and counter attack was really amazing.
It showed how the Red Army high command learned fast and applied it directly into the battlefield;

The German High command lacked this capacity, they were not able to adjust to the situation.
Until late 1944 they were dreaming of a kind of blitzkrieg to annihilate the red army in south russia.

Gara Man,
Bareeeytuma might be a band of raiders, but they occupied the land and
still live there (from Harerge Highands upto to Khamise in Wallo)
where as the forces of Imam probably raped every female they found and left for good.

Aliyyi,
Muslim Sultanates were strong political structures! at the time the Adal kingdom had a life streching on 5 centuries.
There were strong Muslim Sultanates in Showa highlands!
The Imam sentenced them to death by directly aiming to annihilate the abyssinian kingdom.
And abyssinans annihilated those kingdoms!!

Lets us see a possible scenario if Imam didnt do his destructive war:
Bareeytuma would have been incorporated in the Adal kingdom will strengthen the muslim force and crush abyssinans in the eastern highlands and wallo.
Northern Borana would have been incorporated to the showan sultanate and abyssinan kingdom will face emboldened Tulama Maccaa in its heartland Gonder and Gojjam.
These two moieties led by such a strong ideology such as Islamism would have crushed the abyssinian kingdom and turn it into a muslim one.

B.

[abdalla11]

Mainstein and other so called German generals' fame is much hyped.
If one analyses their strategy its empty: their fame is made in beating disorganized France.
Their so called innovation, the BlitzKrieg was effective, only as long as they had technological superiority: Poland with a 19th century army(1939), a disorganized France (1940) and early stages in Russian Campain (1941-1942) with a disorganized and poorly armed Red Army .

In contrast, the Red Army's retreat, resistance and counter attack was really amazing.
It showed how the Red Army high command learned fast and applied it directly into the battlefield;

The German High command lacked this capacity, they were not able to adjust to the situation.
Until late 1944 they were dreaming of a kind of blitzkrieg to annihilate the red army in south russia.

Von manstein stands with head and shoulders above other German generals, like Paulus. Most of the german generals were very good in planning and logistics but Von manstein was a operational genius. There is a reason why Hitler gave him the command after the devastating battle of Stalingrad. His Russian counterpart zhukov is also a smart, tough general. Von manstein could easily won the battle of kursk if Hitler didn´t interfere, that goes for Paulus, battle of stalingrad, as well.

But we can´t put him on the same list as Khalid bin walid, Napoleon and Genghis Khan etc, not in milion years

[bareento]

Its funny that u pointed out the Battle of Kursk as sign of Manstein's genious;
If any the battle of Kursk showed the defensive superiority of the Red Army's high command;
At Kursk, the Soviet High Command, brought the german army into a kill zone and annihilated it.
The very fact that Germans attacked at Kursk shows how strategically blind they were: they were
still dreaming of of BlitzKrieg style encerclement!!!


B.

[abdalla11]

As i said it was due to Hitler´s interference that they lost. Hitler delayed Von Manstein´s attack for several Months and that took the crucial element of suprise away. Imagine having several months extra to prepare yourself on your defence. The blitzkrieg would have been efficient if they attacked three months earlier before the russians retreated to urban places where the germans had to fight for every block. Now imagine using the blitzkrieg in the open field three months earlier before the russian retreated.

Don't forget that Von manstein defeated several russian armies with his little division

As for the battle of stalingrad under the command of Paulus. The germans had several strategic cities, especially the critical oil city, Cuacassus in their sight. But Hitler ruins it again and splits the army to capture Stalingrad because he wanted to wipe the word 'Staling' off the map. The russians again retreated to the urban places and the germans had to capture every house. What would happen if the germans occupied the oil fields of Cuacassus? The russians would have surrender in no time

It was due to Hitler that they lost, it was him who tore up the plan of several battles, like the battle of kurks, the battle of Stalingrad and the battle of the Ardennes/Bulge

[bareento]

Defeated Generals always put the blame on the political leaders : Red Army generals on Stalin for early Russian Campain and Nazi generals on Hitler for the defeat of Germany.

Germans can only lose the war in Russia, because they had no capacity to occupy Russia because of Red Army resistance.
In fact Germany lost the war in winter 1941-1942, in front of Moscou!
Everything that came after is starategically nonesense; once the blitzkrieg failed to make kneel the russians it was of no use to continue;
In fact Halder even recommended that Germans retreat to their border as early as at the height of Moscou Battle.

Neverthless Manstein was a brilliant General
B.

[Gara Man]

Krapf the German dude? I thought he only went to Wallagga. He's the one who coined the term 'Ormania'. I know about de gama, the relative of vasco but I never heard of the blade. Bisiddiimo is mostly inhabited by Ala, so there could be connection.

Bro the blade even had his inscriptions on it but in the mean time i will try to find it the link.

and bareento who do you think are the army's left overs? Probably different then oromo mogassas right?

[bareento]

I believe Imam's soldiers let burst their knowhow in raping virgins once in highland Abyssinia.
We AQ came after , put the raper and raped together and made them Ilma Orma

Truly, the Humbannaa-Itu Gadaa was magnificient!

B.

[Gara Man]

I believe Imam's soldiers let burst their knowhow in raping virgins once in highland Abyssinia.
We AQ came after , put the raper and raped together and made them Ilma Orma

Truly, the Humbannaa-Itu Gadaa was magnificient!

B.

i have my own little theories of the make up of the AQ.

[bareento]

I believe Imam's soldiers let burst their knowhow in raping virgins once in highland Abyssinia.
We AQ came after , put the raper and raped together and made them Ilma Orma

Truly, the Humbannaa-Itu Gadaa was magnificient!

B.

i have my own little theories of the make up of the AQ.

Am sure u r refering to the Galti part of AQ ,

AQ do not need any theory, we r the jewels of Bareeytumaa

B.

[Gara Man]

I believe Imam's soldiers let burst their knowhow in raping virgins once in highland Abyssinia.
We AQ came after , put the raper and raped together and made them Ilma Orma

Truly, the Humbannaa-Itu Gadaa was magnificient!

B.

i have my own little theories of the make up of the AQ.

Am sure u r refering to the Galti part of AQ ,

AQ do not need any theory, we r the jewels of Bareeytumaa

B.

Are you sure?

And correction were the jewels of bareetumma

[bareento]

i have my own little theories of the make up of the AQ.

Am sure u r refering to the Galti part of AQ ,

AQ do not need any theory, we r the jewels of Bareeytumaa

B.

Are you sure?

And correction were the jewels of bareetumma

Com on, u r not updating the old theory of that little gentleman by the name of voltage, who once
presented AQ as a left overs of Imam's fleeing soldiers.
Dont u know the guy has several opinions on every suject? he probably said everything and its opoosit.

B.

[Gara Man]

Com on, u r not updating the old theory of that little gentleman by the name of voltage, who once
presented AQ as a left overs of Imam's fleeing soldiers.
Dont u know the guy has several opinions on every suject? he probably said everything and its opoosit.

B.

Actually if my memory served me right he presented the dagaa as the left overs of the army not all AQ. If you are wondering my theory is no way the same as his but there is a contradiction in migration tales of the AQ. Most people say the AQ came from southern Ethiopia Bale but i have read different among dagaas interviewed in the late 19th century.

[bareento]

Gara Man,
Oromo genealogy is political construction, it comes to sanctfy a political alliance!
Afran Qallo, is an alliance of four oromo tribes that separated at a time from the bigger Bareeytuma.

All AQ tribes claim coming frm elsewhere; some even point out to
some parts of present day ogadenia(alaa), or even north somalia(noolee).
The migration from south ie Baali is in my opinion prior to the migration u r talking of;
It was prior to the foundation of Odaa Bultum in early 16th century; at the time there were no AQ federation some even say Oda Bultum was common to the whole Bareeytumaa moiety ie before the differentiation of Arsi, Hararge, Wollo Oromos

Finally, the genealogy of the 19TH AQ do not differ from the current one;
and if there is any difference it doesnt mean its more correct it only means reflects the political situation of the 19TH century.

For instance Noolee was powerful before the coming of the Turko Arabs, now
they r junior partner in AQ federation (they r considered as the grand sons of qallo) , Alaa taking ascendance on them (previously considered as the youngest hence as "ilma dullacha" born from a foreigner not a very nice position),
if not for that war today noolee would have been considered as direct son of Qalloo, and probaably as the eldest one!

Anyway I will love hearing your theory on Daga, on whom I know only the Noole and Jaarso.

B.

[Gara Man]

Gara Man,
Oromo genealogy is political construction, it comes to sanctfy a political alliance!
Afran Qallo, is an alliance of four oromo tribes that separated at a time from the bigger Bareeytuma.

All AQ tribes claim coming frm elsewhere; some even point out to
some parts of present day ogadenia(alaa), or even north somalia(noolee).
The migration from south ie Baali is in my opinion prior to the migration u r talking of;
It was prior to the foundation of Odaa Bultum in early 16th century; at the time there were no AQ federation some even say Oda Bultum was common to the whole Bareeytumaa moiety ie before the differentiation of Arsi, Hararge, Wollo Oromos

Finally, the genealogy of the 19TH AQ do not differ from the current one;
and if there is any difference it doesnt mean its more correct it only means reflects the political situation of the 19TH century.

For instance Noolee was powerful before the coming of the Turko Arabs, now
they r junior partner in AQ federation (they r considered as the grand sons of qallo) , Alaa taking ascendance on them (previously considered as the youngest hence as "ilma dullacha" born from a foreigner not a very nice position),
if not for that war today noolee would have been considered as direct son of Qalloo, and probaably as the eldest one!

Anyway I will love hearing your theory on Daga, on whom I know only the Noole and Jaarso.

B.

Nice explanation but i already knew gosas were partially lies, even as i kid i thought it was a joke but for some reason i am interested in it now. And i think we kind of had this discussion already and all seems old but it also seems to you there are only two sub clans in AQ!

but i am not talking who was the strongest of the four but what direction AQ came from So according to you only your political situation reflects on were your origin lies? Okay noole and jarso are both dagaa both i believe came eastward then why did not both have the same treaty with the same somali clan? To me Jarso is a just name of place, as baabillee, but both somehow became a clan name.

Also i dont think arab-turks are soley responsible for weakening the noole, i think somewhere the issa are involved.

My theory is not done yet but will marinate some details if this discussion proceeds onwards.

[bareento]

Gara Man,
Oromo genealogy is political construction, it comes to sanctfy a political alliance!
Afran Qallo, is an alliance of four oromo tribes that separated at a time from the bigger Bareeytuma.

All AQ tribes claim coming frm elsewhere; some even point out to
some parts of present day ogadenia(alaa), or even north somalia(noolee).
The migration from south ie Baali is in my opinion prior to the migration u r talking of;
It was prior to the foundation of Odaa Bultum in early 16th century; at the time there were no AQ federation some even say Oda Bultum was common to the whole Bareeytumaa moiety ie before the differentiation of Arsi, Hararge, Wollo Oromos

Finally, the genealogy of the 19TH AQ do not differ from the current one;
and if there is any difference it doesnt mean its more correct it only means reflects the political situation of the 19TH century.

For instance Noolee was powerful before the coming of the Turko Arabs, now
they r junior partner in AQ federation (they r considered as the grand sons of qallo) , Alaa taking ascendance on them (previously considered as the youngest hence as "ilma dullacha" born from a foreigner not a very nice position),
if not for that war today noolee would have been considered as direct son of Qalloo, and probaably as the eldest one!

Anyway I will love hearing your theory on Daga, on whom I know only the Noole and Jaarso.

B.

Nice explanation but i already knew gosas were partially lies, even as i kid i thought it was a joke but for some reason i am interested in it now. And i think we kind of had this discussion already and all seems old but it also seems to you there are only two sub clans in AQ!

but i am not talking who was the strongest of the four but what direction AQ came from So according to you only your political situation reflects on were your origin lies? Okay noole and jarso are both dagaa both i believe came eastward then why did not both have the same treaty with the same somali clan? To me Jarso is a just name of place, as baabillee, but both somehow became a clan name.

Also i dont think arab-turks are soley responsible for weakening the noole, i think somewhere the issa are involved.

My theory is not done yet but will marinate some details if this discussion proceeds onwards.

i) I know more about Noole and Alaa that is why I use them as examples; my point is not to say who is more powerful, as clans has no longer no meanings today. Wat I wanted to say is your position in a federation depends on your power: compared to your power u r considered the eldest son or the youngest son in a federation.

ii) Jaarso and Baabbile as place names is bold and maverick, but it contradicts the general pattern, as oromos tend more to name places after the tribes.
I some how read about Jaarsos in Showa and Wallaggaa and it tend to be rather a person name; in Borana and Arsi its still name.

iii) Noolee and Jaarso do not live with the same Somalis and hence can not have the same treaty with the same somalis.
Besides living togeter doesnt equate having treaty

B.