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xaliye123 wrote:Ninkan saancadlaha ah iyo Umadan muslinka ah ee aan been aqoon yaa saxsan maylow.

Dee miyaan garaneyaa adeer.


Adiga yaa kula saxsan?

Aniga kolay Abtirkai badalimaayo James Dahl.

Isaaq, Dir iyo Daarood abtirkoodu ismuu badalin ilaa 600-700 oo sano, e ma maantaynu badalaa hadaba.

In wax la bedelo qof ka yeeleyaa ma jiro, laakin doodu markasta waa iney inoo furantahay.

Qarac baan ahay oo wax i dhalay garanmaayo dood ma aha de.

xaliye123 wrote:Qarac baan ahay oo wax i dhalay garanmaayo dood ma aha de.

Mar hadaad saa tidhi, waan kugu raacsanahay.

James,

I agree Somali clans are very old, including the ones that claim Arab ancestry (Daarood, Isaaq). I remember Somalis used to claim that Islam came to Somalia before it even reached Madina!

xaliye123 wrote:Qarac baan ahay oo wax i dhalay garanmaayo dood ma aha de.

Tolloow somalida kale sida Dirta, Digilka, Mirifle iyo Hawiye ma garac baa? ayagu ma shegtaan niin carab ee? beenta aan iska dhaafno somali waa ummadd afrikaan ah, sida ey asia uu kala duwan tahay ayay afriko uu kala duwan tahay, qof walba oo afriko ka soo jeedo san balaaran ma heystaan iyo timo adag, qof walba asia jooga na indho yar ma heysto niin carab na kama dhaxlin sanka yar iyo timaha jilecsan, waa riyo.

What's garac/qarac?

Jasmine6 wrote:What's garac/qarac?

Bastard

I thought so but I didn't want to jump to conclusions

XimanJaale wrote:Tolloow somalida kale sida Dirta, Digilka, Mirifle iyo Hawiye ma garac baa?

Maya. Dir iyo Hawiye waa Irir Samaale. Their farther was brothers with the other Samaales who are a break away tribe from the larger Cushitic groups of East Africa. Now why Sab is different from these Samaales is an interesting question.

We can confirm that Hawiye have had their genealogical structure for over 900 years. There's no reason to assume that it's not even older than that. In recent years we have seen certain qabiils leave and become either part of a new qabiil or something different all together. An example of this is the Cayr sub clan which left and joined Mareexaan as well as the Gibil Maddoow sub clan of Reer Xamar who are largely Hawiye (Ajuran etc).

A current example in the making are the Fiqishini. They recently elected their own Garad. As a HG/Cayr sub clan they already have a leader, by electing their own they're moving away from their clan identity. Even the name, HG call their leader Ugaas, they're calling theirs Garad which is what Dhulbahante call their leader. 100 years from now will they be fully assimilated into Darood and cease to be Hawiye?

I am starting to think that there may be truth to the theory that the Warsengeli Darood are actually Harti Abgaal who went through this process. We also know that Hawiye lived in the North and they don't now, what happened to them?

Jasmine6 wrote:I thought so but I didn't want to jump to conclusions

XimanJaale wrote:Tolloow somalida kale sida Dirta, Digilka, Mirifle iyo Hawiye ma garac baa?

Maya. Dir iyo Hawiye waa Irir Samaale. Their farther was brothers with the other Samaales who are a break away tribe from the larger Cushitic groups of East Africa. Now why Sab is different from these Samaales is an interesting question.

We can confirm that Hawiye have had their genealogical structure for over 900 years. There's no reason to assume that it's not even older than that. In recent years we have seen certain qabiils leave and become either part of a new qabiil or something different all together. An example of this is the Cayr sub clan which left and joined Mareexaan as well as the Gibil Maddoow sub clan of Reer Xamar who are largely Hawiye (Ajuran etc).

A current example in the making are the Fiqishini. They recently elected their own Garad. As a HG/Cayr sub clan they already have a leader, by electing their own they're moving away from their clan identity. Even the name, HG call their leader Ugaas, they're calling theirs Garad which is what Dhulbahante call their leader. 100 years from now will they be fully assimilated into Darood and cease to be Hawiye?

I am starting to think that there may be truth to the theory that the Warsengeli Darood are actually Harti Abgaal who went through this process. We also know that Hawiye lived in the North and they don't now, what happened to them?

Never heard of a Ceyr sub clan that joined Mareexaan. Bare in mind Mareexaan and Cayr are not even in the same category in terms of lineage. Habar Gidir and Mareexaan are in the same category.

@ Warsagali Abgaal are Warsangali I think your trying to claim all Daarood clans from Mareexaan all the way to Warsangali and trying to somehow link it to Hawiye.

Also lets end this guessing game or rumors of how one clan joined another clan. It is pointless, besides most of the sub-clans and abtirsi that we know of know are are well known however what is in the dark is the abtirsi before Daarood, Hawiye, Isaaq etc.

Also this Irir Samaale guy himself is in darkness, we don't know much about him, his brothers, his father, his origin etc.

All the abtirsi we know of today are not fake and 100% true. Specially the Daarood's and most of Isaaq are aware of their lineage all they upto Daarood and Isaaq. It is Hawiye and Raxanweyn that are clueless about their abtirsi. Like Jasmine I ask you to count all your forefather all they upto Habar Gidir can you do that? I can name my forefathers upto Daarood...but before Daarood I don't know and I'm trying to found out where Daarood ( the man) really originates from, because I doubt he was a Arab man.

I am not trying to claim Darood. And no Darood's origin is not known like I said the man you claim died in the 1400's. Now if it's accurate that the Warsengeli Sultanate was established in the 1200's that is a clear indication that they weren't Darood (at least not descendants of Sh. Ismail Jaberti)

Like I said I don't know where Darood came from. I asked you when they were first mentioned in history so that I could do some research but you didn't answer my question. As for Samaale like I said it's Cushitic and at that level we'd need to go into the E1b1b1 discussion.

I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to reason it out. If my logic is flawed please tell me how. Which part of what I've said is factually in accurate, if my assumptions are in accurate then give alternative explanations that are still supported with facts.

And yes I can count up to Habar Gidir and then up to Hawiye and Irir Samaale.

Jasmine6 wrote:I thought so but I didn't want to jump to conclusions

XimanJaale wrote:Tolloow somalida kale sida Dirta, Digilka, Mirifle iyo Hawiye ma garac baa?

Maya. Dir iyo Hawiye waa Irir Samaale. Their farther was brothers with the other Samaales who are a break away tribe from the larger Cushitic groups of East Africa. Now why Sab is different from these Samaales is an interesting question.

We can confirm that Hawiye have had their genealogical structure for over 900 years. There's no reason to assume that it's not even older than that. In recent years we have seen certain qabiils leave and become either part of a new qabiil or something different all together. An example of this is the Cayr sub clan which left and joined Mareexaan as well as the Gibil Maddoow sub clan of Reer Xamar who are largely Hawiye (Ajuran etc).

A current example in the making are the Fiqishini. They recently elected their own Garad. As a HG/Cayr sub clan they already have a leader, by electing their own they're moving away from their clan identity. Even the name, HG call their leader Ugaas, they're calling theirs Garad which is what Dhulbahante call their leader. 100 years from now will they be fully assimilated into Darood and cease to be Hawiye?

I am starting to think that there may be truth to the theory that the Warsengeli Darood are actually Harti Abgaal who went through this process. We also know that Hawiye lived in the North and they don't now, what happened to them?

Sabe and Samaale are not tribes per se, it's a social thing, like the Reds and the Whites among the Afars, or the Borana and the Barentuma among the Oromo. Basically it's like this:

In Somali society you have the upper caste who are the Soomaali, and the junior caste who are the Sab.

The Booran have the exact opposite: The upper caste Booran are the Sabbo, and everyone else is in the 'Junior' moeity of Goona (literally means junior).

Originally there was also a division between Orma (original Oromo) and Barentuma (Oromized Oromo). This was discarded in favor of the two moieties being Boorana and Barentuma. In reality Booran is just one clan, the leading clan of the Booran Confederation, and in reality is a descendant of Orma, not the father.

Orma is the same man as Umur, the father of Digil (in reality Digil, or Digalu, is a clan of Orma, not a son). Most of the Goona in the Booran confederation are descendants of Saamaaloo. Does that sound familiar?
Both Somali and Oromo agree that they are brothers, though they are somewhat vague what that means. In the Somali tradition, it makes Samaale a brother of Sabe, both sons of Xiil or Iil, who is presumed to be an Arab named Axmed. The Oromo tradition does not require a genealogical relationship and every Somali clan is just added to various confederations. Hawiye for instance is added in the Baabiile confederacy, Daarood was added to Jaarsoo.

Untangling all this, essentially long long ago you had the Samaale and the Orma and a number of tribes in southern Ethiopia. The Eastern Samale and Orma became Muslims and became the Soomaali and the Sab, and the Western Samaale and Orma did not become Muslims and became the Orma and the Goona. Both groups invaded Ethiopia and absorbed a large number of tribes into their ever growing ranks, as did the Abyssinians with their own territories. Islam, the Coptic Church and the Gadaa system all worked overtime to assimilate the hundreds of tribes throughout the horn of Africa and make them "Somali", "Oromo" or "Amhara".

If you look at the area untouched by all this back-and-forth conquest and assimilation, the far southwest of Ethiopia, there are hundreds of small tribes scattered through the area, that's what the whole Horn was once like. Now everyone has been absorbed into one of three super-nationalities.

Jasmine, Daaroods claim that Daarood died in 8th Century (701-801) so this supports the Warsangali sultanate. Also the time differences is quite big around 500 years since his death until the creation of Warsangali Sultanate that leaves off Daarood's offspring to have produced enough to be visible enough to control and have their own kingdom. So the lineage of Daarood is in no doubt, but what is in doubt is whether Daarood was really a Arab man or pure African.