My Stance,

[gegiroor]

Oh come on serene. So if someone insults our Prophet scw, we should let them bash the prophet freely and don't do anything, what kind of logic is that? At the end of the day this is a somali forum, and last time I checked majority of Somalis are muslim. Like I said previously, I will not tolerate someone bad mouthing Allah swt, my prophet scw and my religion. So no they will not bash what's sacred to me freely.


P.s

How dare you compare bantu, hargeisa to our beloved prophet scw.


Are you muslim? Do you pray 5 times a day? I am not attacking you, but for a Muslim person you surely don't care anything about Islam.

SS is just protesting against Abdijohnson's ban who has done the unthinkable. FAH is right is right to permanently ban that atheist scum; mclovin should be next; and if SS and DR-YALAXOOW don't watch their language, they should be next too. No more Atheism hiding behind freedom of expression and open-door fake policy. I stay ban all Islamophopes!

[mclovin]

SS is just protesting against Abdijohnson's ban who has done the unthinkable. FAH is right is right to permanently ban that atheist scum; mclovin should be next; and if SS and DR-YALAXOOW don't watch their language, they should be next too. No more Atheism hiding behind freedom of expression and open-door fake policy. I stay ban all Islamophopes!

Hmm.. I wonder what would cause me to get banned. Maybe if i said "Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl", which he did. I mean AbdiJohnson got perma-banned for saying essentially the same thing, and he wasn't lying.

Narrated 'Urwa:
The Prophet (ﷺ) wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 67, Hadith 93

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/93

If you find this insulting, don't blame me for saying it. Blame Muhammad for doing it.

Here are more references:

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 67, Hadith 69
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 67, Hadith 70
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 63, Hadith 122
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/122

Sunan Abi-Dawud Book 12, Hadith 76
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/76

[gegiroor]

SS is just protesting against Abdijohnson's ban who has done the unthinkable. FAH is right is right to permanently ban that atheist scum; mclovin should be next; and if SS and DR-YALAXOOW don't watch their language, they should be next too. No more Atheism hiding behind freedom of expression and open-door fake policy. I stay ban all Islamophopes!

Hmm.. I wonder what would cause me to get banned. Maybe if i said "Muhammad had sex with a nine year old girl", which he did. I mean AbdiJohnson got perma-banned for saying essentially the same thing, and he wasn't lying.

Narrated 'Urwa:
The Prophet (ﷺ) wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

If you find this insulting, don't blame me for saying it. Blame Muhammad for doing it.

Here are more references:

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 67, Hadith 69
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 67, Hadith 70
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/70

Sahih al-Bukhari Book 63, Hadith 122
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/122

Sunan Abi-Dawud Book 12, Hadith 76
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/76

Prophet Mohamed (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched Aisha (May Allah be pleased with him) until she was a mature. Atheists like you try to stretch the hadiths and fit in your narrow minded and Islamophobic views. The consensus is she was at least 15 years of age in those days but most likely 19 years of age. One can read further details here: (http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm).

Yes, you should be banned for the garbage that you're putting here which has only one purpose: Spread Islamophobia. You're selectively choosing texts without context, and you're repeating it persistently which only has a clear agenda.

If it was up to me, you and others would never roamed this forum with the garbage that you're putting here! But too bad you have been facilitated by the forum owners, admin, and mods.

[SolidCamel]

Mclovin is hilarious. You have to be pretty insecure to join a forum for the sole purpose of getting into religious debate. Don't project your insecurities onto us man. Your little cherry picked hadiths from Wiki Islam have constantly been refuted.

[mclovin]

Brother Mohamed (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched Aisha (May Allah be pleased with him) until she was a mature. Atheists like you try to stretch the hadiths and fit in your narrow minded and Islamophobic views. The consensus is she was at least 15 years of age in those days but most likely 19 years of age. One can read further details here: (http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm).

Yes, you should be banned for the garbage that you're putting here which has only one purpose: Spread Islamophobia. You're selectively choosing texts without context, and you're repeating it persistently which only has a clear agenda.

If it was up to me, you and others would never roamed this forum with the garbage that you're putting here! But too bad you have been facilitated by the forum owners, admin, and mods.

No, It is not the consensus of any classical scholars. This is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization by western apologists in order to explain away the uncomfortable nature of these hadith. Quoting from the source that you cite...

As to the authenticity of these reports, it may be noted that the compilers of the books of Hadith did not apply the same stringent tests when accepting reports relating to historical matters as they did before accepting reports relating to the practical teachings and laws of Islam. The reason is that the former type of report was regarded as merely of academic interest while the latter type of report had a direct bearing on the practical duties of a Muslim and on what was allowed to them and what was prohibited. Thus the occurrence of reports such as the above about the marriage of Aisha in books of Hadith, even in Bukhari, is not necessarily a proof of their credibility.

He does not cite any sources to justify this wildly audacious claim. He simply counts on the gullibility of his audience to take what says at face value. On the contrary, the vast majority Hadith scholars, across all madhabs for over 1000 years agree that the entirety of sahih bukhari and muslim is completely and totally authentic. There is no indication that Imam bukhari or muslim lower the strictness of his criteria for any of the hadith included in their collection. So,it seems he's just pulling this out of his ass, and weakens his overall position. Moving on...

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time.

This proves nothing, and gives no indication that aisha was approaching "majority" whatever that means. In Islam, it is permissible to marry a girl who has not reached puberty(http://islamqa.info/en/12708) so aisha being engaged doesn't it means she's reach puberty.

Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.

This is false. Fatima was actually 9 years older than Aisha, not five. Aisha was born 4 years after the first revelation, Fatima was born 5 years before.

The rest of the article is just fluff, based on false premises.

The idea that aisha was older than nine when her marriage with muhammad was consummated, is a new one that only seems to be popular in the west and based on poor reasoning and faulty logic. The hadith saying aisha was nine at the time of consummation is mutawatir, the most authentic hadith classification in existence.

Stop being such a coward and face the reality of what your prophet has done

[mclovin]

Mclovin is hilarious. You have to be pretty insecure to join a forum for the sole purpose of getting into religious debate. Don't project your insecurities onto us man. Your little cherry picked hadiths from Wiki Islam have constantly been refuted.

So far as i see it, Wiki-Islam is honest as least 80% of the time. Their mistakes come from the fact that they use hadith classified as da'if(weak), using hadith for center for muslim and jewish engagement rather than sunnah.com, and missing sources.

Everything else, so far as i've seen, is true and well documented.

[SolidCamel]

Mclovin is hilarious. You have to be pretty insecure to join a forum for the sole purpose of getting into religious debate. Don't project your insecurities onto us man. Your little cherry picked hadiths from Wiki Islam have constantly been refuted.

So far as i see it, Wiki-Islam is honest as least 80% of the time. Their mistakes come from the fact that they use hadith classified as da'if(weak), using hadith for center for muslim and jewish engagement rather than sunnah.com, and missing sources.

Everything else, so far as i've seen, is true and well documented.

Lol. Let me ask you this. Was young girls being married off a common practice in those times? Why was this never a criticism of the Prophet (SAW) until recent years? I mean even 1000 years later you had Henry VIII marrying a 6 year old. It's silly and intellectually dishonest to put that practice in our current context.

You still never responded to me regarding your insecurities.

[gegiroor]

No, It is not the consensus of any classical scholars. This is nothing more than a post-hoc rationalization by western apologists in order to explain away the uncomfortable nature of these hadith.

It is not a western apologists who doesn't accept the story that you and fellow despicable Islamophobes are running with. Islamic scholar Maulana Mohamed Ali published his work in 1920s and 1930s. It was based on his knowledge after he conducted a research, and this is some of his work:

Determination of the true age of Aisha [May Allah be pleased with her]

It appears that Maulana Muhammad Ali was the first Islamic scholar directly to challenge the notion that Aisha was aged six and nine, respectively, at the time of her nikah and consummation of marriage. This he did in, at least, the following writings: his English booklet Prophet of Islam, his larger English book Muhammad, the Prophet (pbbuh), and in the footnotes in his voluminous Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, these three writings being published in the 1920s and 1930s. In the booklet Prophet of Islam, which was later incorporated in 1948 as the first chapter of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he writes in a lengthy footnote as follows:

“A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.” [4] (Bolding is mine.)

To facilitate understanding dates of these events, please note that it was in the tenth year of the Call, i.e. the tenth year after the Holy Prophet Muhammad received his calling from God to his mission of prophethood, that his wife Khadija passed away, and the approach was made to Abu Bakr for the hand of his daughter Aisha. The hijra or emigration of the Holy Prophet to Madina took place three years later, and Aisha came to the household of the Holy Prophet in the second year after hijra. So if Aisha was born in the year of the Call, she would be ten years old at the time of the nikah and fifteen years old at the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Your claim that it is "post-hoc rationalization by western apologists in order to explain away the uncomfortable nature of these hadith" will take a deep hit again. Here is the work of Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib who compiled the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih. He died 700 years ago, and some of his work is briefly mentioned below:

2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:

“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet (pbbuh), and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.” [6]

(Go here to see an image of the full entry in Urdu.)

This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.

3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:

“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.” [7]

Again here are more facts explaining Aisha's (ra) age was much older than 9 years old:

• According to a hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.

• Ibn Hisham’s version of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.

• Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

• Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah (Pre-Islam Period), which has ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.

• According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

• According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah (Migration to Medina). However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years, then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.

• According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as in Ibn Kathir's Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, if Aisha got married in year 1 AH or 2 AH (after Migration to Medina), she must have been between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

• According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the both of Badr and Uhud battles. Furthermore, in Bukhari's Kitabu’l-Maghazi, Ibn `Umar states: "The Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud battle, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq battle, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation". So, since it was not allowed for Muslims younger than 15 years old to participate in Uhud battle, Aisha, who participated in Uhud, must have been at least 15 years old in those battles; thus her age was at least 13 to 14 at the time of her marriage.

• According to ibn Sa’d's Tabaqat and Ansab al-Ashraf books, opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. The marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-Ghaba, 5:501).

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/arti ... c0811-3718
http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm


Of course, since you're a desperate Atheist Islamophobe, I don't expect you to accept these facts as they bust the nonsense that you accuse Islam.