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gegiroor wrote:The last thing we need is some girls who learned a new and dangerous phenomena aka feminism before they even learn Islam, and then bringing that opinionated mindset into the deen and Muslim families. A dangerous approach indeed!
Gegiroor I am a Muslim. What that means is I believe in The Loving and Just Allah. Whatever it is you believe that allows you to lie to your wife or sneak around behind her back or force her to stay married to you once she realises what you've been doing and in the case of Zumaale rape a woman as long as she's a POW or slave, wherever these beliefs come from I have no intention of spending my time trying to change them. You are a grown man who will be answerable to the One who you say has given you the authority to behave in this way.
I too will be answerable for claiming that He wouldn't allow this behaviour. As it says in the Quran; He will judge about that which we differ.
gegiroor wrote:The last thing we need is some girls who learned a new and dangerous phenomena aka feminism before they even learn Islam, and then bringing that opinionated mindset into the deen and Muslim families. A dangerous approach indeed!
Gegiroor I am a Muslim. What that means is I believe in The Loving and Just Allah. Whatever it is you believe that allows you to lie to your wife or sneak around behind her back or force her to stay married to you once she realises what you've been doing and in the case of Zumaale rape a woman as long as she's a POW or slave, wherever these beliefs come from I have no intention of spending my time trying to change them. You are a grown man who will be answerable to the One who you say has given you the authority to behave in this way.
I too will be answerable for claiming that He wouldn't allow this behaviour. As it says in the Quran; He will judge about that which we differ.
Wa salaam.
First of all, that is slander. Not once have I promoted rape, I have merely emphasised that a slave woman cannot refuse a master his right to have sex with her, just like how a wife cannot withhold sex from her husband. I do not have to elaborate that a slave would not contemplate rejecting the amorous advances of a master on account of her being his property.
Secondly, I do not pull information out of thin air. Everything that I have stated during our exchanges in this thread have been supported with evidence from Quran and the example of the Prophet SAWS. You can choose to disagree with the Ayats from the Quran and the conduct of the Prophet/Sahaba which sanction concubinage but do not slander the messenger please.
Lastly, I would be grateful if you refrained from replying to this post or any other post with that Ayat from Surah Al Kafiruun because we do not belong to different religions. That Ayat is directed to the Kafiruun, not to a Muslim such as myself.
gegiroor wrote:The last thing we need is some girls who learned a new and dangerous phenomena aka feminism before they even learn Islam, and then bringing that opinionated mindset into the deen and Muslim families. A dangerous approach indeed!
Gegiroor I am a Muslim. What that means is I believe in The Loving and Just Allah. Whatever it is you believe that allows you to lie to your wife or sneak around behind her back or force her to stay married to you once she realises what you've been doing and in the case of Zumaale rape a woman as long as she's a POW or slave, wherever these beliefs come from I have no intention of spending my time trying to change them. You are a grown man who will be answerable to the One who you say has given you the authority to behave in this way.
I too will be answerable for claiming that He wouldn't allow this behaviour. As it says in the Quran; He will judge about that which we differ.
Wa salaam.
First of all, that is slander. Not once have I promoted rape, I have merely emphasised that a slave woman cannot refuse a master his right to have sex with her, just like how a wife cannot withhold sex from her husband. I do not have to elaborate that a slave would not contemplate rejecting the amorous advances of a master on account of her being his property.
Secondly, I do not pull information out of thin air. Everything that I have stated during our exchanges in this thread have been supported with evidence from Quran and the example of the Prophet SAWS. You can choose to disagree with the Ayats from the Quran and the conduct of the Prophet/Sahaba which sanction concubinage but do not slander the messenger please.
Lastly, I would be grateful if you refrained from replying to this post or any other post with that Ayat from Surah Al Kafiruun because we do not belong to different religions. That Ayat is directed to the Kafiruun, not to a Muslim such as myself.
ديني هو دينك .
What do you mean "a slave woman cannot refuse a master his right to have sex with her"? If a woman does not want to have sex with a man but the man forces her to have sex, then how is that lawful? In what religion does God allow that? This why I say lakum deenukum waliya deen. Whatever it is you believe it is at odds with my beliefs.
This is Islam:
Quran 24:32-33
And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware. And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
Quran 47:4
So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Quran 16:71
And on some of you God has bestowed more abundant means of sustenance than on others: and yet, they who are more abundantly favoured are [often] unwilling to share their sustenance with those whom their right hand possess, so that they [all] might be equal in this respect. Will they, then, God's blessings [thus] deny?
What are the principles of Islam and what type of character does it promote? - Rhetorical. I will assume good intention on your part but this is a depressing thing to argue about. All I would say is that it is better not to say anything than to attribute ugly things to Allah or the prophet (saw) and claim Islam makes it lawful. So if you really and truly believe what you say, then lakum deenakum waliya deen. Let's let Allah be the judge.
Btw:
54:22 We made the Quran easy to remember. Is there anyone who would remember?
54:32 We made the Quran easy to understand. Is there anyone who would understand?
54:40 We made the Quran easy to memorize. Is there anyone who would memorize?
What do I mean by saying a slave woman cannot refuse to have sex with her master? Is that a rhetorical question? Do you want me to define what a slave is? It ain't rocket science huuno. Do you think the Jewish female slaves that were distributed among the Sahabah during the time of the Prophet SAWS after their menfolk were executed voluntarily became concubines? I cannot comment on the particulars of how the Early Muslims approached these women for sex because it would be ignorant of me to do so without evidence. However, it is an escapable fact that captive women became concubines and the Prophet SAWS possessed a concubine so did other Sahabahs such as Ali RAC and Cumar RAC. AS the Prophet SAWS was divinely guided by Allah, who are you to deem ugly the concubinage that he SAWS and the Early Muslims practised. Furthermore, concubinage continued to exist after the death of the Prophet SAWS and not one Sahabah or early classical scholar deemed it as Xaram. The only thing that was Xaram for a slave master was to prostitute his concubine to others.
I do not independently claim Islam makes concubinage Xalal, the Quran and the Sunnah have made it Xalal. This is a fact that was never controversial during the lifetime of the Prophet SAWS and the early Muslims and had only become contentious in the 19th century.Why do you think that is? Mainly due to pressure from Western colonial powers. Everything I have stated in regard to this practise is from the Quran/Sunnah and can be supported with scholarly evidence.
Lastly, it is better not to say anything and preach what is Xalal or Xaram as a layman. Neither is it wise to subjectively declare what is and isn't Islam. It is folly to selectively pick Ayats from the Quran and ignore others to support an argument when one does not have a grasp of their context and the accompanying Hadith literature. Furthermore, how can one who has no grasp of Fiqh dismiss the work of established scholars? How can one disagree with aspects of Classical Orthodox Islam without having studied it first? Seek knowledge, then make up your mind as to what is and is not Islam. Rightly or wrongly, your stance will at least have some scholarly foundation to it.
zumaale wrote:Do you think the Jewish female slaves that were distributed among the Sahabah during the time of the Prophet SAWS after their menfolk were executed voluntarily became concubines? I cannot comment on the particulars of how the Early Muslims approached these women for sex because it would be ignorant of me to do so without evidence.
You do you realise that you have already made a comment on the matter. What you are saying is that women were taken against their will as concubines for sex by the Prophet and his followers. How is that not an ugly thing to say? Bring me an ayat or a hadith where Allah or the Prophet condone taking women sexually against their will. The ayat above states how to deal with POWs. How do you disregard it so easily?
Ilaahey ka cabso.
This isn't about Westerners so do not deflect. This is about Islam and its teachings. This is about human beings and their dignity irrespective of whether they were a slave or not. Islam was brought during a time when slavery was a part of the economy, when slaves used to get branded on their faces. My question to you is, what was Islam's take on slavery and the treatment of slaves or POWs for that matter?
If you need five years and a PhD to answer that question on the most basic level or if you believe that the Prophet of Islam used women against their will then how exactly can you believe in Islam? Allah created us all to know the difference between right and wrong. Forcing someone to have sex has never been right no matter how far you go back in time.
BVSNet wrote:
You do you realise that you have already made a comment on the matter. What you are saying is that women were taken against their will as concubines for sex by the Prophet and his followers. How is that not an ugly thing to say? Bring me an ayat or a hadith where Allah or the Prophet condone taking women sexually against their will. The ayat above states how to deal with POWs. How do you disregard it so easily?.
This is like Groundhog Day. You cannot just pick an Ayat and ignore its historical setting. This Ayat relates to the male prisoners of war that were captured during the Battle of Badr, not what one's right hand possesses. Come on, you are smarter than that.
Guiding the believers to what they should employ in their fights against the idolators, Allah says,
(So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks) which means, `when you fight against them, cut them down totally with your swords.'
﴿حَتَّى إِذَآ أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ﴾
(until you have fully defeated them,) meaning, `you have killed and utterly destroyed them.'
﴿فَشُدُّواْ الْوَثَاقَ﴾
(tighten their bonds.) `This is referring to the prisoners of war whom you have captured. Later on, after the war ends and the conflict has ceased, you have a choice in regard to the captives: You may either act graciously toward them by setting them free without charge, or free them for a ransom that you require from them.' It appears that this Ayah was revealed after the battle of Badr. At that time, Allah reproached the believers for sparing many of the enemy's soldiers, and holding too many captives in order to take ransom from them. So He said then:
(It is not for a Prophet to have captives of war until he had made a great slaughter (among the enemies) in the land. You desire the commodities of this world, but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. Allah is Mighty and Wise. Were it not for a prior decree from Allah, a severe torment would have touched you for what you took.) (8:67-68)
I have never stated that women were taken as slaves to specifically satisfy one's sexual needs. What I have repeatedly asserted is that concubinage is condoned by the Quran and also by the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS. The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that becoming a slave, and by default a concubine, was not something that the womenfolk of defeated enemies would have welcomed. Do you think any free born woman would celebrate becoming a slave after seeing their male relatives executed? Moreover, I never stated that they were raped as concubines as I clearly highlighted when I said I do not know how their master would approach them sexually so do not accuse me of saying that the Early Muslims raped their concubines, that is slander. I am aware that there are Hadiths in which the Prophet SAWS advises some Sahaba that they should not practise withdrawal with slave women they have captured, however, one cannot speculate that these Sahaba had sex with these slave captives without their consent.
Hadith 3.718 : I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interrupts. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Bani Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come into existence."
Does this mean that the Companions of the Prophet (SAW) didn't commit adultery when they practiced 'azl with the captive girls?.
Published Date: 2002-12-27
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:
This hadeeth was narrated by al-Bukhaari (2542) from Ibn Muhayreez who said: I saw Abu Sa’eed (may Allaah be pleased with him) and I asked him. He said: We went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the campaign of Banu al-Mustaliq, and we captured some prisoners from among the Arabs. We desired women and the period of abstention was hard for us, and we wanted to engage in ‘azl (coitus interruptus). We asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for there is no soul which Allaah has decreed should exist until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”
According to another report, They captured some female prisoners and wanted to be intimate with them without them becoming pregnant. They asked the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about ‘azl and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has decreed who should be created until the Day of Resurrection.”
This hadeeth was also narrated by Muslim (1438), whose version says: We captured some women of the Arabs and we had been abstinent for a long time; and we wanted to be able to sell them, but we wanted to engage in intimacy with coitus interruptus. We said, “Shall we do that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is among us without asking him about it?” So we asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “There is no point in doing that, for Allaah has not decreed that any soul should be created until the Day of Resurrection but it will come into existence.”
It may be understood from the hadeeth that those who wanted to engage in ‘azl did so for two reasons: they did not want the women to become pregnant, and they wanted to be able to sell them – if a slave woman got pregnant she could not be sold.
It may also be understood that ‘azl (coitus interruptus) does not change anything. If Allaah decrees that a child should be born, water (semen) will come out before the man realizes it.
Secondly:
Allaah has permitted intimacy with a slave woman if the man owns her. This is not regarded as adultery as suggested in the question. Allaah says, describing the believers (interpretation of the meaning):
“those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)
Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess,__ for then, they are free from blame”
[al-Mu’minoon 23:5]
What is meant by “those whom their right hands possess” is slave women or concubines. See also question no. 10382, 12562.
Once this is understood, it should be noted that what is suggested in the question, that this was zina, never occurred to the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). What they were asking about was the ruling on practicing ‘azl with the slave women whom they had acquired in the course of jihad.
Moreover ‘azl may be done with a concubine or with a wife, if she agrees to that. See question no. 11885.
This isn't about Westerners so do not deflect. This is about Islam and its teachings. This is about human beings and their dignity irrespective of whether they were a slave or not. Islam was brought during a time when slavery was a part of the economy, when slaves used to get branded on their faces. My question to you is, what was Islam's take on slavery and the treatment of slaves or POWs for that matter?
I was not deflecting but was illustrating to you how there was never a debate among Muslims for the almost 1300 years that slavery was Xaram. Coincidentally, we were forced to abandon slavery because of Western abolitionist pressure so what does that tell you? Was the adoption of anti-slavery legislation by Muslim countries an organic process based on the Quran and Sunnah or the result of Western colonisation and neo-colonisation?
To find out Islam's take on slavery, read the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS. Is it ever mentioned as being Xaram? The answer is an emphatic no. Did the Prophet SAWS and the Sahaba abolish it? No. What Islam did was reform the institution of slavery and made it more humane. Furthermore, manumission is encouraged as a means by which a Muslim can acquire Ajr and make up for missed fast days.
If you need five years and a PhD to answer that question on the most basic level or if you believe that the Prophet of Islam used women against their will then how exactly can you believe in Islam? Allah created us all to know the difference between right and wrong. Forcing someone to have sex has never been right no matter how far you go back in time.
Walal, fadlan, do not accuse me of making slanderous statements against the Prophet SAWS. Wallahi that is just not on.
