Pharoah's Baboons

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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Gurey,

There were many back migrations. Here's the earliest known into Ethiopia:

http://www.nature.com/news/first-ancien ... on-1.18531

It's 4,500 years old.

This study finds another one at about 3,000 years ago, all the way from the Levant to South Africa:

http://www.nature.com/news/african-gene ... ck-1.13607

Part of this study has been corrected by the authors, but the full conclusions still apply to East Africa. This is the migration that applies to the pastoralist Khoe and appears to go right through D'mt and the Semitic corridor into the Ethiopian highlands. The timing could coincide with Hatshepsut's expedition, whose language woud have been more similar to Semitic than Cushitic. There are only four known kings of D'mt and they disappear by 650 BC. Ati and King Perahu could represent an earlier phase of a people that moved south under pressure from the groups that became Auxum. They could also have moved south before D'mt was established. Ati, for sure, doesn't look either Egyptian or Cushitic.

As you said previously above, wild camels do not exist in Africa. Dromedaries were domesticated in central Arabia, significantly later than the Bactrians, and must have crossed the Red Sea/Gulf of Aden somehow. They are shipped the reverse direction all the time today. How did the Beja and Saho get their camels? I am unaware of any early dates for camel bones in Somalia.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by James Dahl »

The dates of the Da'amat kings are highly conjectural
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

White man,

If wishes and opinions are not facts why are you posting the hypothesis of the Afro-Asiatic urheimat being the Sahara as a fact when most scholars believe the urheimat was an area that stretched from Northern Sudan to Somaliland i.e northeast Africa and HoA?

It's because it suits your Eurocentric narrative and agenda.

Secondly, there are cave paintings in Somaliland depicting camels that are over 3000 years old, now combine that with the fact that only the Somali language has kept the Proto Afro Asiatic word for Camel (Gaal) and Proto Afro Asiatic word for he-camel (Awr) unlike the Ayrabs that allegedly introduced them to us.

The so called Omo-Tana group is not even considered a group today but individual branches of lowland east Cushitic so the notion that Somalis have been in the Horn only the last 1000 years is mythology.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

I didn't invent the Afroasiatic, nor did I invent the manner in which it divided. I suggest you read the article. More of the Semitic went on up into the Levant and the balance of the Fertile Crescent, so this isn't even all of it.

http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling ... iatic.html

Image

Hatshepsut's wonderful things from Punt were carried from the Red Sea coast back to Egypt on donkeys, and camels were not mentioned or depicted, so the camels had not reached Egypt or the Red Sea coast by 1500 BC. The domestication dates for camels in Arabia are only 500 years earlier, so I doubt that very early camel bone will be found in Somalia. Rock art is very difficult to date; I will go with the bones when they are found.

The Omo-Tana divided up and went their separate ways 2000 years ago. It is the Samaale identity that is only 1000 years old. Genetic Cushites, without the herding culture typical of Kush, were coming out of the Sahara and moving south and east for 24,000 years. This probably describes many Somalis. It just doesn't describe the Samaale, who were part of a specific migration that included the Oromo in it's early stages.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

The article you posted describes the hypothesis of a specific linguist. According to the article Chadic split from Proto Afro-Asiatic first while most linguists actually believe it's Omotic, which is considered the oldest subfamily.

There are linguists who group Semitic, Berber and Cushitic while other linguists disagree. So there's no right or wrong. Only different scenarios of possible migration routes.

The Omo-Tana hypothesis is not even considered in modern linguistics. The languages within this proposed group are actually independent branches of low land east Cushitic.

The Somali identity is quite recent but the ancestors of Somalis (Proto East Cushitic speaking groups) lived in the eastern parts of the Horn from Eritrea, northeastern Ethiopia to Somaliland, roughly coinciding with the territory and timeline of Punt.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushitic_languages

"The Cushitic languages are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family spoken primarily in the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and Ethiopia), as well as the Nile Valley (Sudan and Egypt), and parts of the African Great Lakes region (Tanzania and Kenya). The branch is named after the Biblical character Cush, who is identified as an ancestor of the speakers of these specific languages as early as 947 CE (in Al-Masudi's Arabic history Meadows of Gold).

The most widely spoken Cushitic language is Oromo (including all its variations) with about 35 million speakers, followed by Somali with about 18 million speakers, and Sidamo with about 3 million speakers. Other Cushitic languages with more than one million speakers are Afar (1.5 million) and Beja (1.2 million). Somali, one of the official languages of Somalia, is the only Cushitic language accorded official status in any country. Along with Afar, it is also one of the recognized national languages of Djibouti.

Additionally, the languages spoken in the ancient Kerma Culture in present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan and in the Savanna Pastoral Neolithic culture in the Great Lakes area are thought to have belonged to the Cushitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family."


"Beja (North Cushitic)
Central Cushitic (Agaw)
Highland East Cushitic (Sidamic)
Lowland East Cushitic
Dullay
South Cushitic"

Now all of these folks are absolutely not Samaale. And you will notice that the early locus for the family was in Kerma and the Great Lakes area. The map of the Afroasiatic above is where the language families ended up, not where they started.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Speakers of the subfamilies you've listed are not Samaale but most of them descended from the same Proto Cushitic speaking group Somalis descended from. In other words, our distant cousins.

Actually, the south Cushitic speaking group migrated from the Horn of Africa to the Great Lakes region. South Cushitic languages did not originate in central Africa.

So the locus for this greater family must've been northeast Africa (centered around Kerma) and the Horn of Africa.

That map is ridiculous, the semitic language family did not seperate the Egyptian language family and the Cushitic, illustrated by the map, because they overlapped in ancient times. The Kerma Kingdom (Cushitic) rivaled Pharaonic Egypt of the Middle Kingdom until it was absorbed into New Kingdom and the royal lineages of both Kingdoms intermarried making Kerma a key province for the Egyptian Kingdom.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Uh, no.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/kterms/qt/kerma.htm

Kerma was conquered by Thutmosis I, father to Hatshepsut, in 1500 BC. But:

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/glos ... f-Kush.htm

"Over time, Egyptian control over Nubia declined, and by the eleventh century BCE, the Viceroys of Kush had become independent kings. During the Egyptian Third Intermediate Period a new Kushite kingdom emerged, and by 730 BCE, Kush had conquered Egypt right up to the shores of the Mediterranean. The Kushite Pharoah Piye (reign: c. 752-722 BCE) established the 25th Dynasty in Egypt."

The Assyrians drove the Kushites back into Nubia, but ..."Kush remained safe behind the desolate landscape south of Aswan, developing a separate language and variant architecture. (It did, however, maintain the pharaonic tradition.) Eventually the capital was moved from Napata south to Meroe where a new 'Merotic' kingdom developed. By 100 AD it was in decline and was destroyed by Axum in 400 AD."

The last time I checked, Kerma was not in the Horn, and Kush survived quite a while after Egypt fell to the Ptolemies. Intermarriage? Pharoahs married their siblings. Even the Greek Pharoah Cleopatra married as her first husband her younger brother Ptolemy XII.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

You're so quick to denounce Cushitic history that you're not even reading what I wrote.

The Kerma Kingdom (not city) rivaled Egypt during the Middle Kingdom until it was absorbed into the Egyptian empire during the New Kingdom. From historical records, it's believed that the Royal lineages of both Kingdoms intermarried. The objective would've been to cement greater ties and politically legitimize the annexation of Kerma.

The Kerma Kingdom and Kingdom of Kush are two seperate Kingdoms, however it is believed that the Kingdom of Kush rose from the basic foundations of the Kerma Kingdom.

So what if Kerma is not located in the Horn of Africa? The locus for Cushitic languages happen to be northeast Africa (Southern Egypt, northern Sudan) and the Horn of Africa.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

I am not sure that explicating Cushitic history is the same as denouncing it. Kerma, Kush, Napata and Meroe are all phases of the Cushitic. The annexation of Kerma proceeded from Thutmose's conquest of Nubia, not a royal marriage.

http://ancientegypt.wikia.com/wiki/Thutmose_I

"Thutmose's father is unknown, but he was not closely related to the preceding Pharaoh. His mother's name, Senseneb, was recorded, and she is believed to have been a commoner.[1] Queen Ahmose, his great wife, was probably the daughter of Ahmose I and the sister of Amenhotep I[2] However, if she was, she was not married to him only slightly before Amenhotep I's death, merely to guarentee succession, for two reasons. First, Amenhotep's alabaster bark built at Karnak associates Amenhotep's name with Thutmose's name well before Amenhotep's death.[3] Second, Thutmose's firstborn son with Ahmose, Amenmose, was apparently born long before Thutmose's coronation. He can be seen on a stela from Thutmose's fourth regnal year hunting near Memphis, and he became the "great army-commander of his father" sometime before his death, which was no later than Amenhotep's death in his 12th regnal year.[4] Thutmose had another son, Wadjmose, and two daughters, Hatshepsut and Nefrubity, by Ahmose. Wadjmose died before his father, and Nefrubity probably did as well.[5] Thutmose had one son remaining by another wife, Mutnofret. This son succeeded him as Thutmose II, whom Thutmose I married to his fully royally born daughter, Hatshepsut.[6] It was later recorded that Thutmose willed the kingship to both Thutmose II and Hatshepsut, however this was certainly Hatshepsut's propaganda to solidify her claim when she usurped the throne.[7]"

At various times Egypt ruled Kush and Kush ruled Egypt. There was never a union that put them on the same page. The rulers were NOT from the same family. The Egyptian family of rulers was buried in the Valley of the Kings.

The home of the Cushitic languages was in the SOUTHERN Sudan, not the north. It did not extend into southern Egypt. The language itself derives from the proto-Afroasiatic, which encompassed all of the Afroasiatic languages and included all of the Sahara. You are trying to push it north and east, which did happen, but was a much later development.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

You're so quick to post your own assumptions and quotes "supporting" your bias that you can't separate basic facts like the Kerma Kingdom and Kingdom of Kush being two separate Kingdoms. The terms Kush and Cush are not synonymous.

The Kerma Kingdom rose as a secondary state competing with Egypt during the Middle Kingdom. The wealth that enabled this rivalry with Egypt came from Nubian gold mines controlled by the Kerma Kingdom but also the land routes and land trade with Punt. Which indicates that both Kerma and Punt were inhabited by Cushitic speaking groups.

There's evidence pointing towards intermarriages between the royal lineages of the Kerma Kingdom and Pharaonic Egypt after this Kingdom was annexed by Egypt. However you're conflating this issue with alleged intermarriages between Kushite Kings and royal lineages of Egypt and that's not what I wrote.

Nonetheless, the Kingdom of Kush rose from the ashes of the Kerma Kingdom and it was based on the foundation and culture found in the Kerma Kingsdom, the former capital of this Kingdom was also used by the Kushite kings for ceremonies and burials.

Linguists haven't determined the Urheimat of Proto Cushitic but most linguists believe that the urheimat is Northeastern Ethiopia and Eritrea because that's where almost all the subfamilies of the Cushitic language family meet, not southern Sudan.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Do you have links for any of that?
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Kerma kingdom.

https://books.google.se/books?id=lFscBg ... om&f=false


Proto Cushitic being spoken in the southern hills of the Red Sea (Eritrea and northeastern Ethiopia) and that its place of origin most likely is located north of Eritrea. Coinciding with the fact that a Cushitic language was spoken by the people of the Kerma Kingdom, the southern Red Sea coast being inhabited by Cushitic speaking groups and that in ancient times there wasn't a barrier between Ancient Egyptian and Cushitic languages.

https://books.google.se/books?id=32-TDA ... ic&f=false
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

The first link describes Architecture and lay-out, funeral practices, the statue and tomb of an Egyptian governor that were found with statues stolen from Egypt, and seals suggesting diplomatic ties with the Hyksos kings of Avaris. Nothing about royal marriages.

The second link is quite clear about the placement of the Cushites in the eastern Sahara:

"Contacts between the early northern Cushites and the proto-Sahelians require locating the northern Cushites of 6000 BCE also in the eastern Sahara, presumably east of the Nile (That is, northward from Eritrea).

After the initial breakup of the proto-Cushitic society, Cushitic-speaking populations spread successively over a period of several thousand years, first probably around the northern edge of the Ethiopian highlands and then into the areas in and to the east of the Ethiopian Rift Valley.

The last major southward extension of Cushites for which we have archaeological dating correlation was that of the southern Cushites who first
moved southward into northern East Africa around the late 3000's BCE."

Sir, you waste my time.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

You're not reading the links throughly.

The first link, if you scroll down, clearly states that the Kerma Kingdom in classic times (during the Egyptian Middle Kingdom) rivaled Egypt because the Kingdom controlled the Nubian goldmines and land trade with Punt. It was the Kingdom of Kush, who later used the former capital of Kerma which is why you're still mixing the terms, that allied themselves with the Asiatic Hyksos to defeat Egypt. By that time the Kerma Kingdom had already been absorbed by the Egyptian Kingdom.


The second link states that there's a possible connection between Proto Sahelian groups and north Cushitic (Beja) which is the earliest and oldest branch descending from Proto Cushitic and it is North Cushitic that you still find in northeast Africa today (east of the Nile is not defined as the Sahara). Now, You're overlooking (in reality dismissing) that Proto Cushitic was spoken in the southern hills of the Red Sea.

We can now conclude that Kerma and Punt = Cushitic.

If anything you're the one wasting my time with your incoherent posts, changing subjects so that it fits your agenda because the entire thread was created to question our connection to Punt (our ancestors) and to distance Punt by claiming its inhabitants were Khoisan.
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