The Isreal government is a terrorist

[avowedly-agnostic]

"Imagine if Hezbollah had a few hundred tanks, drones and F16's, would it still be 10:1? You can't be serious! "

The principal reason Hizbollah is able to succesfully repel Israeli forces is because it's a guerrilla entity. If Hizbollah were to fight as a conventional army possessing tanks, helicopters and all the heavy artillary you alude to, it'd be crushed by Israeli military superiority as Israel demonstrated in the six day war.

Hizbollah is better off fighting a Vietcong style guerrilla war with underground tunnel complexes, ambushes and hit and run tactics (as indeed it already is ).

[gurey25]

Isreal will never perform as spectacularly as the 6 day war.

The isreals shone brightly becuase the arabs really really really sucked.
in 1967 the average arab soldeir hated his fellow officer more than the isrealis, and had no interest in fighting or training at all.


things are very differant, but isreal still has the edge in training and CCC
Command, Control,Communications and will defeat the arabs again,

Under Normal cicumstances.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

"If they are so skilled why then are they having difficulty eliminating a couple of thousand men with very basic weapons? Plus, what good would their skill be without the billions they get every year for the past half-century from America? Imagine if Hezbollah had a few hundred tanks, drones and F16's, would it still be 10:1? You can't be serious!

Well, I guess you will tell us how urban combat is difficult and the "enemy is launching attacks from civilian areas" and that the Israelis are merciful and don't want to kill a lot of people."

Viking
If the IDF received less military assistance from the US, their forces would be that much less capable. I would think that's obious. Who would dispute that?

The reason the IDF is having so much trouble with Hizbollah now is locating and targetting an enemy that is not uniformed and operating in urban environments with large numbers of locals makes it very difficult to find them. This is the reason the IDF is putting so much pressure on the southern Lebanese population. The way to defeat Hizbollah is to destroy or disloge the poulation that is supporting them. This is why fights in Africa are so brutal. Because the same rules apply. Only difference is the media report on a thousand dead Africans in on page 10 of the Times - one pararagh. That's why they are destroying so much infrastructure - it doesn't get as much new and associated pressure as destroying women and kids.

But if it makes you feel better, if I were in charge of the Israeli side, I would kill eery human being in southern Lebanon. Women, children, cats, dogs, everything. If it showed up on a thermal site it would die. But fortunately for hizbollah I am not in charge.

If I were in charge of Hizbollah, I would start making forays from close to the Syrian border to try and get Syria into the conflict. And I would keep doing what they are doing now.

[Gedo_Boy]

MAD MAC,

Fortunately, you are not in charge........You may have forgotten that Syria, Jordan, Egypt border Israel.

also, did you forget there are 130K US soldiers in Iraq?

Forget about Al-Sadr, even Ayatollah Sistani would declare Jihad.

The region is on the brink as it is, you would just push it over the edge.

You know that, your superiors know that, the politicians know that.......there's no silver bullet, if there was, Bush wouldn't be 400Billion in the hole.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

"Fortunately, you are not in charge........You may have forgotten that Syria, Jordan, Egypt border Israel.

also, did you forget there are 130K US soldiers in Iraq?

Forget about Al-Sadr, even Ayatollah Sistani would declare Jihad.

The region is on the brink as it is, you would just push it over the edge.

You know that, your superiors know that, the politicians know that.......there's no silver bullet, if there was, Bush wouldn't be 400Billion in the hole."

Gedo, you reach the point where it's time to face the music. Either the Arabs and Persians are going to back down, or there's going to be a war. The Arabs are the ones who are constantly agitating to change the status quo. And they are agitating through violence. We are not going to back down. Not this time. So eventually you reach the point where it's us or them, our lives or theirs, and if we have anything to say about it, it's going to be ours. I have discussed this topic with enough Arabs and enough Muslims to recognize that the conflict is not going to end because Muslims don't want it to end. Israel could find itself (it's not there yet) in a situation where there are only two choices for Israel. Continue to endure the rocket attacks ad nauseum, or ethnically cleanse Southern Lebanon.

Sometimes I am left with the feeling that Muslims believe they have a religious obligation to ensure the violence in the Middle East continues until the American and Western influence is completely removed. Of course this is a recipe for more violence.

I also have the feeling that Muslims believe destiny is in their corner, and therefore no matter what violent actions they take, it is predetermined that things will go their way in the end. Therefore, they continue to do things that aggravate the situation.

[Gedo_Boy]

MAD MAC,

You treat the current status quo as if it has been the way of the world eternally. Look at human history comprehensively, no status quo ever lasts, and usually it's war that ushers in new status quos. Chinese, British, Mongols, Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Americans, Greeks, Macedonians, WHATEVER.

Nations keep doing what made them empires until they run up on the one that was destined to make them fall.........human history. PERIOD.

All of human history is about status quos changing....it's God's check/balance against eternal tyranny:

"And did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief; but Allah is full of Bounty to all the worlds" (2:251)."



Look, I haven't sugar-coated anything.....I told you like it was, I think it was a few months ago where I said that deep down, I believed that the issue in the MidEast was going to have a final resolution in all-out warfare. I think that was even before this conflict started, though I don't remember for sure.

As much as you'd like to convince yourself, or others about what will happen, the fact is that it's all in the air when it comes to all-out warfare, nobody knows what's going to happen........not generals, seargeants, political pundits nobody.


And all-out warfare generally doesn't favor the status quo......that's why I thought the Iraq war was a mistake to begin with.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

But you can predict outcomes with some certainty based upon force calculations. There are some things that are quite clear right now.

[Gedo_Boy]

MAD MAC,

The RedCoats made some force calculations as well, but you can never take into account everything.

There's always an Achilles Heel.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

There's not always an achilles heel, but there is alwaqys room for miscalcuation. That's because of the unknowns and the unfactored variables. But, for example, if the US and Iran went to war, that the Iranian armed forces would be defeated in the field is simply a sure thing. what follows that is a variable that defies prediction, but that their conventional forces would be destroyed and forced to adopt asymetric tactics is not debateable.

[Gedo_Boy]

"None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him"


Well, asymetric or not, I think we both agree on the eventual outcome.

According to the Bible, David killed Goliath with a slingshot, not a sword in a one-on-one battle.......was that asymetric warfare?

Pharoah was killed not by an opposing army, but was drowned after Moses split his staff with the sea and it came back together after the children of Israel crossed. Was that asymetric?

I suppose.

War was always about adapting to changes in paradigms, equipment, techniques, etc. What can you do with what you have, lessons are always learned after the fact and are only valid while that war paradigm still exists. There are different elements at play there.

1. The opportunities.
2. The ingenuity of the individual, this can't be taught.
3. Various other circumstances.



Here are some verses that talk about David/Goliath in the Quran. Goliath's army was far superior.

248. And their Prophet (Samuel <><>) said to them: Verily! The sign of His Kingdom is that there shall come to you At-Tâbût (a wooden box), wherein is Sakinah[] (peace and reassurance) from your Lord and a remnant of that which Musâ (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron) left behind, carried by the angels. Verily, in this is a sign for you if you are indeed believers.

249. Then when Talût (Saul) set out with the army, he said: "Verily! Allâh will try you by a river. So whoever drinks thereof, he is not of me, and whoever tastes it not, he is of me, except him who takes (thereof) in the hollow of his hand." Yet, they drank thereof, all, except a few of them. So when he had crossed it (the river), he and those who believed with him, they said: "We have no power this day against Jalût (Goliath) and his hosts." But those who knew with certainty that they were to meet their Lord, said: "How often a small group overcame a mighty host by Allâh's Leave?" And Allâh is with As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.).

250. And when they advanced to meet Jalût (Goliath) and his forces, they invoked: "Our Lord! Pour forth on us patience and make us victorious over the disbelieving people."

251. So they routed them by Allâh's Leave and Dawûd (David) killed Jalût (Goliath), and Allâh gave him [Dawûd (David)] the kingdom [after the death of Talût (Saul) and Samuel] and Al­Hikmah (Prophethood)[], and taught him of that which He willed. And if Allâh did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief. But Allâh is full of Bounty to the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

252. These are the Verses of Allâh, We recite them to you (O Muhammad SAW) in truth, and surely, you are one of the Messengers (of Allâh)[]

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

"Well, asymetric or not, I think we both agree on the eventual outcome.

According to the Bible, David killed Goliath with a slingshot, not a sword in a one-on-one battle.......was that asymetric warfare? "

No, that was a lucky shot. Of course, it probably didn't happen in the first place.

"Pharoah was killed not by an opposing army, but was drowned after Moses split his staff with the sea and it came back together after the children of Israel crossed. Was that asymetric? "

No, that was a fantasy. There was no split sea, there was no drowning of pharoah. Makes a nice childrens bedtime story. Let's move into the 20th or 21st century. Care to show me some miracle battles there?

"War was always about adapting to changes in paradigms, equipment, techniques, etc. What can you do with what you have, lessons are always learned after the fact and are only valid while that war paradigm still exists. There are different elements at play there.

1. The opportunities.
2. The ingenuity of the individual, this can't be taught.
3. Various other circumstances. "

War is about quality of equipment and quality of training. There are no supermen out there. That's a load of crap. The US consistenly wins because the US has the best equipment and can afford to train its soldiers well. That's why only Saddam has openly challenges us in the last 60 years (he was stupid). The Vietnamese played their cards extremely well, but they were smart enough to know when to push and when not to and they had a lot of staying power (which was what they really needed). But they never won in the field. But they didn't need to. We can not do some sort of "regime change" in Iran, but we can destroy it if we need to.

The US is, and for the foreseeable future will remain, the top military dog in the world. Best training, best equipment.

[Gedo_Boy]

MAD MAC,

Human history:

" And how many a generation before them have We destroyed! Can you find a single one of them or hear even a whisper of them?"

Nobody is denying that the US is the top military power in the world right now, but that isn't guaranteed forever and frankly nobody knows how long it's going to last.

I was just in D.C the other day and I was looking at the monuments and was wondering whether in 800 yrs people would be looking

When I look at this period of history, it's kind of reminiscient of the period where Rome was at its height, but the barbarians kept knocking at the gates. Undoubtedly, the 20th century was American but will it continue? How long will it last?

I'm just looking at things through a wide angle lens, constant warfare & overextension is something that has always made/broke empires. We are just seeing the delayed results of US unilateralism. The world always adjusts itself to a balance of power, and the post-Cold War world is doing just that.........from Russia, Venezuela, China, North Korea etc.



BTW, You were asking whether it was right yesterday for Muslims to invade other nations in the name of Islam, well the more relevant question today is whether it's right to invade countries in the name of 'freedom' or 'democracy'? Bush is doing just that.

Can you imagine the spin nations used to put on colonialism? Maybe it sounded like:

"It's our duty to civliize those savages...their children will appreciate it"
"Why are these barbarians fighting us, after all we brought them civilizatoin"

"No people want to live like they live. We will teach them the rule of law."

"Somebody has to show them how to use their natural resources."

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

"barbarians kept knocking at the gates. "

Good analogy.

"Nobody is denying that the US is the top military power in the world right now, but that isn't guaranteed forever and frankly nobody knows how long it's going to last. "

About another 50-60 years. But expect to see some regional parity in 20 or so.

"BTW, You were asking whether it was right yesterday for Muslims to invade other nations in the name of Islam, well the more relevant question today is whether it's right to invade countries in the name of 'freedom' or 'democracy'?"

Don't get wrapped around the axle concerning what politicians say. We invade other countries for self interest, just like everyone else.

"It's our duty to civliize those savages...their children will appreciate it"
"Why are these barbarians fighting us, after all we brought them civilizatoin"

"No people want to live like they live. We will teach them the rule of law."

"Somebody has to show them how to use their natural resources."

What they should have said is "These primative fockers, we'll kick their ass. Then we can exploit their resources and fock their women."

Nobody believes in truth in advertising anymore.

[Gedo_Boy]

At least you're honest.

[Steeler [Crawler2]]

That would be me. No blinders here. I see the world exactly as it is. I am reminded of this talk in Gross Point Blank.

"I want to know who you kill."
"Well that's kind of complicated. I think what really matters is if you have some sort of ideology to hang on to. For some it's spreading peace and democracy, my favorite was live free of die. But that's bullshit, that's all bullshit, I know that now. You do it because you're trained to do it, because you're paid to do it, and ultimately you get to like it. I know that sounds bad..."
"You're a psychopath."
"No, no, no psychopaths kill for no reason, I kill for money, it's a job. No wait, that didn't sound right. Let me put it this way. If I come to your door, chances are you did something to bring me there. You should read the files on these fockers, reads like a demons resume. Look, I've bottom out here. I've lost my taste for it completely. That's why I came back. I thought coming home, seeing old friends, and, of course, seeing you, would be a critical part of the equation.....no wait, that didn't come out right."