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[quote="#1baller"][quote="neocon_2007"][quote="michael_ital"]And again, you're avoiding a poignant question
[quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
You're losing face here by the moment.[/quote]
Ital hes a joke, nothing serious. Mr. Ambassodor to the Western World is enlightening us how the world see's us through "there eyes". Im going to watch an episode of Bill Oreily on youtube now. [/quote]
Better you do that since you've made no sense so far since this thread started. [/quote]
Yeah whatever. So when are you going to get the book. Your already talking about it yet you havent read it. Doesnt make sense to me
[quote="michael_ital"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
You are right that I AM a genius. But that being said, i'll never purport to know how over 280 million people view a beautful religion.[/quote]
In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?
Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.
[quote="neocon_2007"][quote="#1baller"][quote="neocon_2007"][quote="michael_ital"]And again, you're avoiding a poignant question
[quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
Yeah whatever. So when are you going to get the book. Your already talking about it yet you havent read it. Doesnt make sense to me [/quote]
What doesn't make sense to me is that fact that people here claiming that the woman rejected Islam for money. I don't know the woman personally, and I'm willing to bet that none of you know her personally as well. So therefore you couldn't know the real reason why she left Islam.
For all i know if a somali person decided to convert to Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism many of y'all will say that individual was lost and is a disgrace to themselves. Believe me, I've read many posts in this forum to understand well enough how some of these neanderthals think
So in other words, because a few radicals tarnish the image of a religion practised by over a Billion, we can assume that all Negroes go around killing each other due to ignorance and hate because they wear a different coloured bandana ?
As for her reasons, I implored you earlier, more than once in fact, to Google the b'itch and find out for yourself why she became an apostate.
[quote="#1baller"]In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?
Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.[/quote]
When did Islam go around killing anyone? When people of other faiths or races commit crimes, why is it that their religion is never an issue? Hitler was a catholic and a mass murderer, why isn't his religion ever mentioned? King Leopold of Belgium was another mass murderer of the early 20th century and was also a devout Christian and was actually blessed by the Pope during his rule and colonization of Congo, yet nobody ever discusses Christian violence, why?
White Christians wiped out whole tribes of native Americans in south and central America, why isn't Christianity blamed? White Christians introduced transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, imperialism, socialism, why isn't Christianity blamed?
[quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
You are right that I AM a genius. But that being said, i'll never purport to know how over 280 million people view a beautful religion.[/quote]
In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?
Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.[/quote]
I will prove Ayan wrong right here. Because Time and again, over and over and over again, I either read or hear from people that Islam calls for the murder of "infidels," or all those who are not Muslim. This perception is so pervasive, so entrenched, and I really do not know from where it comes. Yes, there are Muslims who do believe this: 19 of them crashed three planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 of my innocent American brothers and sisters. But, I don't know from where they got this idea. "It is the Qur'an, you idiot!!!" I am quite sure some of you just screamed that to your computer screen. Really? Where? I do not know of one verse which directs the believers to kill all "infidels." Yet, I am constantly reminded of the contrary, such as this verse:
"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).
Or this one:
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).
Or this one:
"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).
Yet, perhaps the "poster child" of all the verses in the Qur'an which are cited as evidence that Islam calls for the murder of infidels is this one, the so-called "Verse of the Sword":
"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).
Case closed? Wrong. These verses have a context, and when understood in their proper context, it will become quite clear that the verses cited above are not a carte blanche for Muslims to kill all non-Muslims...
...In the Qur'an, the principle of fighting is purely self-defensive. According to all available Traditions, the earliest verses revealed with regards to fighting are these:
"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them; those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our sustainer is God!'" (22:39-40).
Along with this verse is 2:190, which says:
"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you..."
Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is to be done in self-defense. Now, anyone can commit acts of terror and aggression and say, "it's in self-defense." In fact, that is precisely what Al Qaeda is doing: they claim by killing 3,000 people in New York City and Washington, D.C., they are "defending" the Muslim nation against "Zionist and Crusader" aggression against the Muslims. What sheer rubbish.
The Qur'an clearly states, in the remainder of 2:190 it says:
"...but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."
"Committing aggression" includes killing innocent civilians in Tel Aviv, Beslan, Mogadishu, New York, Baghdad, or wherever. Furthermore, when the enemy ceases its hostility, fighting must cease:
"...but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193).
Another verse repeats this insistence that hostility must cease when the enemy stops its aggression against you:
"But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).
Thus, even if the enemy is feigning a peaceful posture, the Muslims are still commanded to cease hostility and "place their trust in God." Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is in self-defense, and aggression is not allowed. Now, Muslims have waged wars of aggression in the past, for sure, and they even called them "jihad against the infidels" in order to justify their desire for territorial expansion. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples of this was the Ummayad Dynasty, which enacted a policy of "jihad" as perpetual warfare. But, such a policy is not Islamically correct, and as the collapse of the Ummayad Dynasty showed, not sustainable.
Are there Muslims, however, who believe that non-Muslims are "worse than trash"? Are there Muslims who cite verse 9:5 and others similar to it as justification of their acts of murder and terror? Are there Muslims who think killing innocent Westerners is "self-defense" and therefore sanctioned by Islam? Yes, yes, and yes. Does that mean that what they do is Islamic? NO! NO! NO! NO! These Muslims defame Islam, defy both the letter and spirit of its law, and are an ugly aberration of the true way of the faith. Their sins - and horrific sins they are - can never be confused for the doctrines of Islam. Islam does not call for the murder of "infidels." Now, I am frequently confronted by people who tell me, "But, Ayaan so-and-so says all non-Muslims are to be killed..." or "Shaykh such-and-such says that you must hate all non-Muslims..." or "Maulana whatchamacallhim said that jihad is 'holy war' against the West..." Frankly, I could care less about what Ayaan so-and-so, or Shaykh such-and-such, or Maulana whatchamacallhim says. Their words are meaningless to me. I know what God says: I am not supposed to "kill all the infidels." It just can not be any clearer than that.
"O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do." (Holy Quran 4:94)
Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.''
Abu Dawud, Book of Sunna, edition published by Quran Mahal, Karachi, vol. iii, p. 484
Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: "No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him." Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44
Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah' as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.
Tabarani, reported from Ibn Umar
Call not the people of your Qibla [i.e. those who face the Ka`ba in Makka for prayer] as kafir. Al-Nihaya of Ibn Athir, vol. iv, p. 187
Three things are the basis of faith. [One is] to withhold from one who says `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call him kafir for any sin, nor expel him from Islam for any misconduct.'' Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, 15:33
[quote="michael_ital"]"So in other words, because a few radicals tarnish the image of a religion practised by over a Billion, we can assume that all Negroes go around killing each other due to ignorance and hate because they wear a different coloured bandana ?"
No I never said that. But your example here makes no sense watsoever. This topic is about religion and what happens to people who contest or go against its religious theology. The 9/11 bombings has tarnished the image of muslims in America and in Western Europe and you can't change that. Do I think every muslim person is evil and a terrorist???...the answer is no but the actions of some muslims on all fronts have been attrocious to say the least.
"As for her reasons, I implored you earlier, more than once in fact, to Google the b'itch and find out for yourself why she became an apostate."[/quote]
Believe me I intend to do more research. I'm also going to buy her book "infidel" to see if she has a personal vendetta against Islam as many of you claim.
When did Islam go around killing anyone? When people of other faiths or races commit crimes, why is it that their religion is never an issue? Hitler was a catholic and a mass murderer, why isn't his religion ever mentioned? King Leopold of Belgium was another mass murderer of the early 20th century and was also a devout Christian and was actually blessed by the Pope during his rule and colonization of Congo, yet nobody ever discusses Christian violence, why?
White Christians wiped out whole tribes of native Americans in south and central America, why isn't Christianity blamed? White Christians introduced transatlantic slave trade, colonialism, imperialism, socialism, why isn't Christianity blamed?[/quote]
Koronto,
You make a very valid point. But lemme address this. It is in fact true that Christians have fought and killed people and that has been well documented historically on all fronts, but we are looking at the present day. No Christians in recent centuries have maliciously beheaded and killed people in the name of Christianity. The Muslims have done just that and then some. There have been numerous incidents worldwide within the last 2 decades of Islamic militant groups condoning this type of senseless killing. Religion should not support violent acts of any kind. The thing is people need to co-exist with each other in this world we live in because we're all different in terms of customs and beliefs but for the most part we all want the same thing.
Believe me I intend to do more research. I'm also going to buy her book "infidel" to see if she has a personal vendetta against Islam as many of you claim.
[quote="FAH1223"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"][quote="#1baller"][quote="michael_ital"]and you speak for ALL Westerners ? Enough to feel qualified to opine as to how all of them view Islam ?[/quote]
You are right that I AM a genius. But that being said, i'll never purport to know how over 280 million people view a beautful religion.[/quote]
In all fairness, a beautiful religion does not go around slaying fellow Muslims and killing innocent people due to ignorance and hate because they're a so called "infidel". You keep talking about the misconception by non-muslims yet you have a young somali-woman quoting information written in bold in your qur'an. Is she really telling lies bruh?
Show me some quotes from the qur'an that contradicts what she's said in her interviews then. If you can do that then I will publicly apologise about my comments to the other posters here.[/quote]
I will prove Ayan wrong right here. Because Time and again, over and over and over again, I either read or hear from people that Islam calls for the murder of "infidels," or all those who are not Muslim. This perception is so pervasive, so entrenched, and I really do not know from where it comes. Yes, there are Muslims who do believe this: 19 of them crashed three planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 of my innocent American brothers and sisters. But, I don't know from where they got this idea. "It is the Qur'an, you idiot!!!" I am quite sure some of you just screamed that to your computer screen. Really? Where? I do not know of one verse which directs the believers to kill all "infidels." Yet, I am constantly reminded of the contrary, such as this verse:
"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).
Or this one:
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).
Or this one:
"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).
Yet, perhaps the "poster child" of all the verses in the Qur'an which are cited as evidence that Islam calls for the murder of infidels is this one, the so-called "Verse of the Sword":
"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).
Case closed? Wrong. These verses have a context, and when understood in their proper context, it will become quite clear that the verses cited above are not a carte blanche for Muslims to kill all non-Muslims...
...In the Qur'an, the principle of fighting is purely self-defensive. According to all available Traditions, the earliest verses revealed with regards to fighting are these:
"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them; those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our sustainer is God!'" (22:39-40).
Along with this verse is 2:190, which says:
"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you..."
Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is to be done in self-defense. Now, anyone can commit acts of terror and aggression and say, "it's in self-defense." In fact, that is precisely what Al Qaeda is doing: they claim by killing 3,000 people in New York City and Washington, D.C., they are "defending" the Muslim nation against "Zionist and Crusader" aggression against the Muslims. What sheer rubbish.
The Qur'an clearly states, in the remainder of 2:190 it says:
"...but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."
"Committing aggression" includes killing innocent civilians in Tel Aviv, Beslan, Mogadishu, New York, Baghdad, or wherever. Furthermore, when the enemy ceases its hostility, fighting must cease:
"...but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193).
Another verse repeats this insistence that hostility must cease when the enemy stops its aggression against you:
"But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).
Thus, even if the enemy is feigning a peaceful posture, the Muslims are still commanded to cease hostility and "place their trust in God." Thus, it is quite clear that fighting is in self-defense, and aggression is not allowed. Now, Muslims have waged wars of aggression in the past, for sure, and they even called them "jihad against the infidels" in order to justify their desire for territorial expansion. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples of this was the Ummayad Dynasty, which enacted a policy of "jihad" as perpetual warfare. But, such a policy is not Islamically correct, and as the collapse of the Ummayad Dynasty showed, not sustainable.
Are there Muslims, however, who believe that non-Muslims are "worse than trash"? Are there Muslims who cite verse 9:5 and others similar to it as justification of their acts of murder and terror? Are there Muslims who think killing innocent Westerners is "self-defense" and therefore sanctioned by Islam? Yes, yes, and yes. Does that mean that what they do is Islamic? NO! NO! NO! NO! These Muslims defame Islam, defy both the letter and spirit of its law, and are an ugly aberration of the true way of the faith. Their sins - and horrific sins they are - can never be confused for the doctrines of Islam. Islam does not call for the murder of "infidels." Now, I am frequently confronted by people who tell me, "But, Ayaan so-and-so says all non-Muslims are to be killed..." or "Shaykh such-and-such says that you must hate all non-Muslims..." or "Maulana whatchamacallhim said that jihad is 'holy war' against the West..." Frankly, I could care less about what Ayaan so-and-so, or Shaykh such-and-such, or Maulana whatchamacallhim says. Their words are meaningless to me. I know what God says: I am not supposed to "kill all the infidels." It just can not be any clearer than that.[/quote]
Nice excerpt, but realistically explain something for me. Why would the qur'an a holy book by nature have words or verses discussing the justification of violence and then ask it's followers to interpret the doctrine in a different way???. Isn't that a bit confusing??
[quote="michael_ital"]why does the Bible[/quote] I've yet to see anything like that in the bible but Fah 1223 pointed out that it is written in the qu'ran and even quoted it. Can you address my previous question Mr Ital?
