The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Daily chitchat.

Moderators: Moderators, Junior Moderators

Forum rules
This General Forum is for general discussions from daily chitchat to more serious discussions among Somalinet Forums members. Please do not use it as your Personal Message center (PM). If you want to contact a particular person or a group of people, please use the PM feature. If you want to contact the moderators, pls PM them. If you insist leaving a public message for the mods or other members, it will be deleted.
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

BTW; Gurey, Abdikarim, Meta ; what do you make of this article?

Secularism for Somalia Forever


Muuse Yuusuf
Saturday, April 03, 2010



height=384
In response to a recent article that I have posted at Hiiraan.com commenting on President Sharif‘s visit in Britain, some readers who contacted via email, were critical of my proposition that rather than supporting extremism in Somalia those Somalis in the Diaspora particularly in the West should learn more about secularism and its benefits in order to help Somalia gear towards a more secular state. They felt that it would be foolish to advocate secularism in Somalia, a Muslim country, and any event it would be up to the Somali people to decide on a secular or Islamic state. Also, some argued that because of the civil war, which has destroyed the very fabric of the Somali society, where a mixture of customary laws, Islamic faith teachings and Western secular thoughts seem not to have worked, that Islam is the only common identity and denominator that could be used to remould the broken foundation. And therefore in order to do that one needs an Islamic republic.



However, others were supportive of my suggestion, and were happy with the idea of secularism in Somalia. The views of the last group are probably rare because of the current madness and hype around religion created by political Islam and the atmosphere of intolerance that it has created in our country where different groups are vying for power in order to implement their different versions of Islam.

Secular Somalia forever

Before I proceed with the rest of my article, including explaining the concept of secularism and its benefits, it would only be fair to remind the readers of the proposition that I put forward so that those who have not read the previous article can reflect and ponder on the question. The proposition is as following:

“Another appoint that kept me wonder was if President Sharif was welcomed by the government of a secular state which is now providing sanctuaries for hundreds of thousands of Muslim Somalis – whose religious rights are protected by the state – rather than supporting extremism, why we Somalis can’t learn from our experiences in this country and other western countries in order to learn more about secularism and its benefits? So that we can try to help our country gear towards a more secular state similar to what we had before the collapse of the central government in 1991? Imagine what the situation of thousands of Somalis in this country would be if the UK was a fundamentalist Christian state where its citizens and residents were obliged and expected to adhere to its Christian faith? And those who fail to conform would be subjected to severe punishments”

http://www.hiiraan.com/op2/2010/mar/com ... itain.aspx,

Indeed it is a reality that Britain is among many other secular states worldwide that provide sanctuaries to hundreds of thousands of Muslim Somalis. Regardless of their religious or ethnicity Somalis, like many other ethnic groups, have equal obligations and rights to state protection, access to social services, economic and even political opportunities. And in addition to that, their religious rights are being protected by the state. This is thanks to secularism in these countries. So the question is why support a fundamentalist state or even a theocracy state in Somalia when you can see and are still enjoying benefits of secularism in this country. One can understand those back home, who have not experienced secularism and its benefits, but how can one understand those in the Diaspora enjoying the benefits of secularism but only to advocate extremism and religious intolerance in Somalia?

Although this writer does not pretend to be an expert on secularism, it would only be fair to highlight some aspects of the concept and its benefits in this article, particularly to show how it would be wise to encourage and advocate the concept in Somalia at this particular moment in history where religious intolerance and extremism are rife and are dismantling the very social and cultural fabric of our beloved country. The following is what experts say about the concept of secularism, which has its intellectual and philosophical origins in Roman, Greek philosophers and even in medieval Muslim scholars:

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from the government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief. In another sense, it refers to the view that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact unbiased by religious influence. The purposes and arguments in support of secularism vary widely. On one hand, it has been argued that secularism is a movement toward modernization, and away from traditional religious values. This type of secularism, on a social or philosophical level, has often occurred while maintaining an official state church or other state support of religion. Others argue that state secularism has served to a greater extent to protect religion from governmental interference, while secularism on a social level is less prevalent. Within countries as well, differing political movements support secularism for varying reasons.[1]

In other words, separation of power of the church, mosque or theological doctrine from the state so that religious considerations do not hold much weight on political decisions, and that state institutions, and economic, social and educational policies are not influenced by religious grounds/considerations. For example, teaching the theory of creationism in schools would not be allowed to overtake the theory of evolution, two different concepts in explaining origins of species. In a fundamentalist Christian or Islamic state there would probably be more emphasis on creationism on the expenses of evolution but in a secular state it would be possible to teach both concepts on equal terms. This would be a good start for young enquiring minds, who, if given a well-researched information and balanced curriculum can make up their minds about these huge philosophical concepts. In a democratic secular state, such as Canada etc. people will still have their religious rights, and should be able to practise their faith but religion will only be in the private sphere and not in the public domain.

The following are some examples that illustrate benefits of secularism in today’s world. The vast majority of the 192 UN member states (probably 90%) are secular states with different reasons, practices and stages in implementing the concept of secularism, except very few states, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan (former secular states), and now some parts in southern Somalia where “Islamist” and extremists are planning to introduce a fundamentalist Islamic state similar to that of Saudi Arabia or Iran.

France: A country with a population of 65,447,374 is secular state with religious freedom guaranteed by its constitution. Catholics 51%, agnostics or atheists 31%, 10% from other religions or being without opinion, Muslims 4%, Protestant 3%, Budhist 1%, Jewish 1%.

India: A country with a population of 1,178,900,000 and with many different ethnic and religious groups, including Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism etc. Although communal and religious violence have been an issue since independence, it is probably the state of secularism that is helping these different ethnic and religious groups, though not perfect, to co-exist in harmony and peace, and also to practise their faith as much as they like.

Ethiopia: A neighbouring country with a population of 79,221,000 with different ethnic and religious groups (Christians 62.8%, Muslims 33.9% and 2.6% traditional, 0.6 other) is a living good example of a tolerant state-nation. Although not perfect and there is much work to be done different ethnic and religious groups live side by side in peace and harmony, as they practise their faith as much as they like. Churches are being built alongside mosques. Imagine if the state were a fundamentalist Christian or Islamic?

The writer can go on listing many more secular states with different experiences and stages in the implementation of secularism but above examples are more than enough to make the point.

Although there is a good point about using Islam as a common identity and denominator and therefore an Islamic state would be the logical conclusion of any political settlement, however, because of the current atmosphere of intolerance and religious bigotry that has divided the country into opposing religious fiefdoms, it is indeed questionable, whether such arguments could be sustained, or indeed are desirable. There you have a country – particularly the south – where people are being persecuted or killed for their religious beliefs, or are being ostracised for heresy etc. So the question is given the current bad atmosphere would you encourage or discourage religion? In my view, what Somalis need to do right now is to de-sensitize religion and use secularism as a base for reconstituting a united secular Somali state. After all Somalia has been a secular state since independence in which religion belonged to the private sphere. Current stable regions, such as “Somaliland” and “Puntland” seem to be going towards secularism and that should be supported.

For those who advocate for an Islamic state in Somalia which, according to their views, would create a tolerant, stable and progressive society, need only to look at the state of affairs in Saudi Arabia and Iran where tolerance is out of question and religious minorities are being persecuted; where theocracy is being used to repress dissent and different political opinions, and to muzzle creative, questioning and enquiring minds.

I appreciate that I am probably a lone voice for many of voiceless secular Somalis with untold stories, who if given a choice between a secular or theological state, provided they are given correct and balanced information and without coercion or intimidation, would probably vote for secularism for Somalia.

Muuse Yuusuf
Myuusuf3@hotmail.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism
This guy blogs here:

http://somalithinktank.org/secularism-f ... enal-code/
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

D/P
Titanium
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 am

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Titanium »

Lamgoodle wrote:
Titanium wrote:Sharia today is only for poor people.
Titanium; why is it so? I sense Marxist/Hegelien dialectics in your comment; kind of religion is the opium of the masses.
Look at Saudi Arabia for instance: You have princes who have homosexual relations such as that man who killed his sex slave/servant in the UK. We have Al-Waleed bin Talal who has made a lot of money in a not so Islamic way by investing in American banks who profit off of interest and investing in hotels that serve alcohol. There are some Saudi elite who escape to Monaco and pay tens of thousands of dollars to have some fun with gorgeous women and sometimes even underaged boys. And there are allegations that some in the royal family are heavily involved in the Columbian drug trade. And I Dont think I need to mention that whatever crime the elite or the ruling class do in Saudi Arabia won't even be met with a slap on the wrist.

But if the average Saudi or expatriate worker engages in adultery or is caught with a gram of weed, they'll be sent to chop chop square that following Friday.

Its insane. Why would anyone want to be under something when it doesn't apply to all?
User avatar
TheAspiringMufti
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: The genius Hyuuga Neji will never be forgotten!

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by TheAspiringMufti »

Titanium that isn't sharia, it's saudi culture cloaked as sharia with some elements of true sharia.
Titanium
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 am

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Titanium »

Regardless, whatever true Sharia that is implemented is not the law of the elite or ruling class. I am for Islamic law but if not everyone is judged by it, then how can we expect people to want it?

Its hypocrisy. No where is Islamic law properly enforced
User avatar
abdikarim86
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 12077
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:21 am
Location: Bristol

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by abdikarim86 »

Titanium wrote:Regardless, whatever true Sharia that is implemented is not the law of the elite or ruling class. I am for Islamic law but if not everyone is judged by it, then how can we expect people to want it?

Its hypocrisy. No where is Islamic law properly enforced
Whatever system you're going to have it has to be equally enforced.
Otherwise it's a joke ...very true.

The rule of law is another thing we lack.
User avatar
TheAspiringMufti
SomaliNetizen
SomaliNetizen
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:42 pm
Location: The genius Hyuuga Neji will never be forgotten!

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by TheAspiringMufti »

Titanium wrote:Regardless, whatever true Sharia that is implemented is not the law of the elite or ruling class. I am for Islamic law but if not everyone is judged by it, then how can we expect people to want it?

Its hypocrisy. No where is Islamic law properly enforced
research umar abdulaziz and his reign as caliph, today there's no true semblance of sharia, even al shabab/taliban enforce punishments way to easily without the proper conditions. so don't let these corrupt versions make you not long for the true just sharia.
Titanium
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 am

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Titanium »

There will never be proper Islamic law in place. The only solution is living under secularism and privately practicing your religion. It sounds like a horrible thing to say but what are the alternatives?
Titanium
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 am

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Titanium »

Al Shabab are hypocrites themselves. I remember a warlord who was saved by one of the Al Shabab leaders because they were part of the same sub sub clan
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

Titanium wrote:
Lamgoodle wrote:
Titanium wrote:Sharia today is only for poor people.
Titanium; why is it so? I sense Marxist/Hegelien dialectics in your comment; kind of religion is the opium of the masses.
Look at Saudi Arabia for instance: You have princes who have homosexual relations such as that man who killed his sex slave/servant in the UK. We have Al-Waleed bin Talal who has made a lot of money in a not so Islamic way by investing in American banks who profit off of interest and investing in hotels that serve alcohol. There are some Saudi elite who escape to Monaco and pay tens of thousands of dollars to have some fun with gorgeous women and sometimes even underaged boys. And there are allegations that some in the royal family are heavily involved in the Columbian drug trade. And I Dont think I need to mention that whatever crime the elite or the ruling class do in Saudi Arabia won't even be met with a slap on the wrist.

But if the average Saudi or expatriate worker engages in adultery or is caught with a gram of weed, they'll be sent to chop chop square that following Friday.

It is insane. Why would anyone want to be under something when it doesn't apply to all?
It is the same picture if you look at how somalis behave;
a) We sit in the front raw of mosques; outside the mosque, we engage in fadhi-ku-dirir conspiration to kill other muslim somalis
b) we identify strongly with the notion of wanting a muslim state; yet, we wave secular flags of nations
c) We adopt muslim dress codes (debatable whether it is arabic or muslim); yet, we behave as savages
d) We talk about wanting to leave gaalolands but almost all of us engage in a process to bring our next of kin to gaalolands
e) We claim to want an islamic state but in essense we want a nation of tribes which will become a nation of subtribes, subclans etc
f) We benchmark our muslim states which are actually arabic tribal fiefdoms
g) we reap the benefits of secularism including the right to worship but in our discourse want to fight it.
h) we claim that interest rates are horrible but we consume it daily. Nobody, will say no to social security even though it comes from taxation of alcohol, swine etc.
i) Our kids, who want to bring up as good muslims are bastards since the mom and dad have divorced.

We love to talk the talk but not take the walk.
Titanium
SomaliNet Heavyweight
SomaliNet Heavyweight
Posts: 2999
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:51 am

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Titanium »

The thing with Somalis is that at least the poor nomad can still get away with murder just like the Somali elites can thanks to the Xeer system. We aren't as hypocritical as the others
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

Titanium wrote:The thing with Somalis is that at least the poor nomad can still get away with murder just like the Somali elites can thanks to the Xeer system. We aren't as hypocritical as the others
It is because a) we don't have an economic elite b) we don't have our own islamic sect like wahabism
User avatar
metamorphosis
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 6039
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:05 am
Location: Cali iyo haaruun, miyaa gabal isaaq ciilay? Reer Cali miyaa wada cuskaday, curadadii reerka?

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by metamorphosis »

Lamgoodle wrote:
metamorphosis wrote:It is one thing to be so fond of science and mathematics, and dont get me wrong because I agree that it is these concepts on which the usa/uk economies were built and still are the driving factors, but it is completely another to suggest that these notions take precedent over Islam like lamagoodle has suggested where he said more scientific institutions ought to be built and less mosques.

Moreover, Islam is a religion, it is a way of life and to state the obvious it isnt something you can change or discard when it doesnt "work" which is the theme of this thread.

Lastly, secularism has its own Flaws and limitations and adopting it doesnt necessrily guarantee sucess in economy and technogical innovation. Not to mention some of the ways in which secular states have reached their success works in direction opposition to the fundamental teachings of Islam.


I think we should focus on improving our relations with Allah because no matter how much success and innovation you achieve in this world you will leave it sooner or later. The smart are those who plant the the seeds of the fruits they will harvest tomorrow in the hereafter. My two cents.
Meta; thanks for your contribution. If that is the case i.e. we focus on the world hearafter, why is that we are obsessed with nation building? what is that we want to have secular mechanisms of governance in e.g. somalia? what are we imitating secular nations? why are muslims today better off in secular societies?

Soo cajiib ma aha saaxib?
I never said we should ignore this world at all. I think the pursuit of knowledge that leads to a societal prosperity, technological advances and innovation is a good idea. I agree with you on that note but what I do not agree to is the idea that mosques and religion as a whole should be made subordinate to secularism. Besides this is confusing because you make it seem as if secularism and the progressiveness of any given society are two ideas that are mutually inclusive. Like one cant be without the other.

Moreover, are you saying it is not possible to build and run scientific institutions without first adopting a secular mode of governence?

You sound like you believe the plight of the muslim community today is a direct result of their "failure" to subscribe to secularism and their adherence to Islam. Do you think we should trade Islam for a more "sophisticated" mode of governence like secularism?
Lastly, do you think Islam is to be blamed for why there is very little economical as social success in muslim countries?
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

I never said we should ignore this world at all. I think the pursuit of knowledge that leads to a societal prosperity, technological advances and innovation is a good idea. I agree with you on that note but what I do not agree to is the idea that mosques and religion as a whole should be made subordinate to secularism. Besides this is confusing because you make it seem as if secularism and the progressiveness of any given society are two ideas that are mutually inclusive. Like one cant be without the other.

Moreover, are you saying it is not possible to build and run scientific institutions without first adopting a secular mode of governence?

You sound like you believe the plight of the muslim community today is a direct result of their "failure" to subscribe to secularism and their adherence to Islam. Do you think we should trade Islam for a more "sophisticated" mode of governence like secularism?
Lastly, do you think Islam is to be blamed for why there is very little economical as social success in muslim countries?
Islam is not to blame of course!

I am assuming that you and I agree that the muslim world i.e. countries with majority muslim populations have the following characteristics;
a) The usage of islam as an oration by the political elite to strengthen their hold on power
b) So called Islamic state is just a dream. This utopian notion is used by religious leaders, governments as well terrorists to either cling onto power or gain power
c) Many so called Islamic states embrace secular institutions (legislature, judiciary, taxation etc).
d) Many muslims have more rights in secular state than for instance in Mecca.

The failure of muslims = hypocrisy by leaders and people.

The question is then; could embracing secularism be the answer? I say yes, because there are no other alternatives – utopia aside. Look at our history saaxib; the so called Islamic state was just a qabiil infested anti-islam movement.
You can’t build a viable state by using religion.
Dream is one thing but veracity says otherwise.

The Gulen movement- we can discuss whether it is a secular movement or not – has succeeded in identifying the main problem with the muslim world; the lack of interest for science, the focus on discourse rather than action in the muslim world; the arabisation of islam etc.
They focus on building schools where students can learn natural sciences instead of quran (here the argument goes that they will study quran at home), they build schools instead of mosques because there are already several mosques.
Their argument is that the “muslim” world is backward because of a) arabisation and b) technological proliferation.

P.s. somalis love collecting money and building mosques while the majority of our people have no water; imagine digging wells for nomads…
Lamagoodle
SomaliNet Super
SomaliNet Super
Posts: 7334
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:20 pm

Re: The Gulen movement and Turkish power revival

Post by Lamagoodle »

One question that begs for answers is this:

Have you got an example of an existing islamic state to benchmark?
Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General - General Discussions”