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Such affairs require a fair bit of knowledge of such things, of which most Somali men do not know ofPresent wrote:I never quite understood the need for some men to speak on behalf of the feelings, aspirations and desires of Muslim woman or any woman for that matter. You wonder where are they when a sister needs some gogorad-dirac matching tips
I think you mean "american ARABS." There were barely any Somalis voting in North America before the last couple of elections. And the interests of Somalis in America are very different than the interests of carabta or practically any other muslims. Somalis are usually welfare seekin fiends and the Republicans will never be open to helping poor people.TheMailMan wrote:Not so much anymore dude. Liberals like Bill Maher and Sam Harris have pushed the conversation in a different direction, and now we even have left-leaning Liberals opposing Muslims and trying to curtail our rights.tmac wrote:Zubeir
I support gay rights in the sense that they should be protected from persecution and violence.
You people are funny. You hate liberalism and liberals but I lm sure you all vote for the left leaning liberal parties where you live.. Why don't you all vote Conservative who are anti gay, anti-choice, "family values", dogmatic and religious? Because you know liberals are more open minded and more likely to defend you and protect your rights, despite your views being more aligned with right wing conservative Christians.
You people are so dishonest
We Muslims should be pragmatic and vote for whichever party is most beneficial for us at the time.
Most people don't know this, but American Muslims used to vote Republican until the George W Bush era. Only recently did US Muslims start voting Democrat.
A lot of men, across all cultures and religions, have always had an obsession over women's sexuality and bodies. Religion has for centuries being used as a tool to control women and what they do with their bodies.Present wrote:I never quite understood the need for some men to speak on behalf of the feelings, aspirations and desires of Muslim woman or any woman for that matter. You wonder where are they when a sister needs some gogorad-dirac matching tips
No. I meant American MUSLIMS. Most Muslims in the United States are not Arab.MaliPrince wrote:I think you mean "american ARABS." There were barely any Somalis voting in North America before the last couple of elections. And the interests of Somalis in America are very different than the interests of carabta or practically any other muslims. Somalis are usually welfare seekin fiends and the Republicans will never be open to helping poor people.TheMailMan wrote:
Not so much anymore dude. Liberals like Bill Maher and Sam Harris have pushed the conversation in a different direction, and now we even have left-leaning Liberals opposing Muslims and trying to curtail our rights.
We Muslims should be pragmatic and vote for whichever party is most beneficial for us at the time.
Most people don't know this, but American Muslims used to vote Republican until the George W Bush era. Only recently did US Muslims start voting Democrat.
If there were diaspora Somalis in America 20-30 years ago, they would've been voting Democrat.
ZubeirAwal wrote:Such affairs require a fair bit of knowledge of such things, of which most Somali men do not know ofPresent wrote:I never quite understood the need for some men to speak on behalf of the feelings, aspirations and desires of Muslim woman or any woman for that matter. You wonder where are they when a sister needs some gogorad-dirac matching tips
Judging goes both ways.
That first point is interesting, however, showing of arms, shoulders and hair is universally considered to reveal awrah. Somalis 100 years ago were largely ignorant of Islam, that is a fact. How women choose to clothe themselves is not "an obsession...of modern Muslim sheikhs" but rather an accepted reality in all Islamic school of thought.ZubeirAwal wrote:I made a point in a other thread to this contention, awra is not inclusive to how a specific society may define what arouses them generally or what doesn't, like the open display of a woman's breasts, or her legs, or her arms, for example, 200 years ago Somali women in their native land did not wear the Hijab, much like their male counterparts they donned a sheet that went around their armpit that left one of their shoulders exposed, unmarried girls had a particular plaited hairstyle, married women wore a light sheet over their head, and that was for mere distinction..SaciidAyanleh wrote:
Awrah for women serves a dual purpose, first to preserve their chastity and second to not tempt men. Temptation is to be limited at the expense of female expression. When it is hot it is natural to wear less clothing. There is nothing immodest about short skirts (at or below the knees) or tanktops/tshirts. Women cannot FREELY enjoy themselves at beaches or swimming pools. But, because men are dogs that mode of expression is oppressed.
That was the codes and conventions of what was 'morality' then in Somalia, what it is now is different, you can argue if it devolved or if it evolved, however what I am saying is were those Somali Muslim women any less modest than the ones that wear the Jilbab today? They are both the same, the obsession on women's attire on the part of modern muslim sheikhs is a modern obsession and is not one to be seen in past times...
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Some women desire to express themselves, some women desire attention be it sexual or ordinary, but one thing we can all agree on is that a woman moderately dressed (doesn't have to be one wearing a hijab) will not be gazed at with a eye of lust, when compared to a woman who exposes her behind and her bosom...
In conclusion, I don't know about you but I and 99% of Somalis are Muslim, and we believe that life isn't for us to wildly express ourselves as do the mindless beasts of the earth, but that there is a purpose in life and that life isn't meant to be treated as our one and only experience, with that being said it is required of Muslim men to retain their lustful feelings towards a woman before the requiring of her dressing modestly..
tmac wrote: A lot of men, across all cultures and religions, have always had an obsession over women's sexuality and bodies. Religion has for centuries being used as a tool to control women and what they do with their bodies.
Even in supposed liberal western countries they slut-shame women and judge them on them on what they wear.
If one man advocate for the right of scantily clad women why can't another speak for properly/modestly dressed women.Present wrote:I never quite understood the need for some men to speak on behalf of the feelings, aspirations and desires of Muslim woman or any woman for that matter. You wonder where are they when a sister needs some gogorad-dirac matching tips
TheMailMan wrote:No. I meant American MUSLIMS. Most Muslims in the United States are not Arab.MaliPrince wrote:I think you mean "american ARABS." There were barely any Somalis voting in North America before the last couple of elections. And the interests of Somalis in America are very different than the interests of carabta or practically any other muslims. Somalis are usually welfare seekin fiends and the Republicans will never be open to helping poor people.TheMailMan wrote:
Not so much anymore dude. Liberals like Bill Maher and Sam Harris have pushed the conversation in a different direction, and now we even have left-leaning Liberals opposing Muslims and trying to curtail our rights.
We Muslims should be pragmatic and vote for whichever party is most beneficial for us at the time.
Most people don't know this, but American Muslims used to vote Republican until the George W Bush era. Only recently did US Muslims start voting Democrat.
If there were diaspora Somalis in America 20-30 years ago, they would've been voting Democrat.
And most Arab-Americans---contrary to popular belief---are not Muslims but are in fact Christians. There is a very large Lebanese and Syrian Christian community living in America, and they are considered Arabs. Even the Copts living in America are considered Arabs and they are certainly not Muslim.
It's actually a statistical FACT that 75% of Arabs in America are not Muslim and do not come from Muslim families. They are Christian.
Why do you insist on lying all the time?
I suggest they should, but should you suggest that they should refrain from presenting contentions on the debate often brought up by neo-liberals, it should be only fair that men who are somewhat versed on the matter respond, not because of a self-belief of ownership over women which is absolutely something we should all disagree with, but rather because of defending what they believe in, which I believe all people should have the right to do.Present wrote:ZubeirAwal wrote:Such affairs require a fair bit of knowledge of such things, of which most Somali men do not know ofPresent wrote:I never quite understood the need for some men to speak on behalf of the feelings, aspirations and desires of Muslim woman or any woman for that matter. You wonder where are they when a sister needs some gogorad-dirac matching tips
Wouldn't you suggest they and all men keep their other opinions on what women should and shouldn't do non-existent? My close male relatives never dabble in our affairs as true men. So, I think yes. I keep my hijab and they stay in their lane
@tmac, as I said, I wear a hijab as I want, whereas if you still want to protest then you can always ask I donate my new gogogarad.
Gosh, what does it matter? Assume I am, assume I'm not. But continue, argue against the points I made, which are strong points. Do not shy away from debate because you assume moral superiority.ZubeirAwal wrote: @SaciidAyaanleh are you a atheist? if you are I'll cease this debate because I can't put a halt to a moving wheel.
Because women aren'Present wrote:@Saciid, modesty is incumbent on both Muslim men and women. So, if it so happens that some men are excluding male modesty than its a shame on them scenario. Now if non-hijabis or hijabis are shamed it means your type and all other nosey men need to have their noses cut.
t part of the shamingokay. all i know is that doesn't include somalis. most americans muslims are pakistanis, arabs, and their kind so sure I agree that they are largely educated and succesful and might revert back to voting for republicans.TheMailMan wrote:Somalis are a minority of the Muslims living in America. What you just said is irrelevant and you obfuscate reality by pointing to this one example.
Muslims in America are by and large educated and successful.
Stop acting stupid MaliPrince
Because there are no benefits to be obtained from these kind of verbal exchanges, you subliminal rebuttals of Islam is just example of that, I told you, if you are a materialist then you can't comprehend what I have to say.SaciidAyanleh wrote:Gosh, what does it matter? Assume I am, assume I'm not. But continue, argue against the points I made, which are strong points. Do not shy away from debate because you assume moral superiority.ZubeirAwal wrote: @SaciidAyaanleh are you a atheist? if you are I'll cease this debate because I can't put a halt to a moving wheel.
Because women aren'Present wrote:@Saciid, modesty is incumbent on both Muslim men and women. So, if it so happens that some men are excluding male modesty than its a shame on them scenario. Now if non-hijabis or hijabis are shamed it means your type and all other nosey men need to have their noses cut.
