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LiquidHYDROGEN wrote: You mean the same popular vote that allowed a village in Southern Somalia with no more than 1000 inhabitants to have the same electoral clout as two major regions in the North. Judging by your track records from Somalia's inception to 2015 Amisomia, I wouldn't let a person from Puntland or the South so much as get 1 seat in a future parliament.

I am all for proportional representative democracy in Somalia, as long as Islamist and Communist parties are barred from the system. All other ideologies are fine by me.

LiquidHYDROGEN wrote:1) Somalis should have the Guurti as the senate. That is what the Senate originally meant and functioned as in Roman times (the latin word Senatus came from Senes which meant elderly men) and we should extend their executive powers to cover foreign and domestic policy. The Guurti will be made up of elders from the major and minor clans and will be self-elected. To be eligible for a seat in this house, a candidate must fulfil a series of rigorous academic and experiential requirements and qualifications. e.g. PHD, government/admin/military experience at a senior level, financial requirements e.g. minimum amount of land, property and assets owned etc. etc.

The Guurti will elect an Consul every 4 years and this consul will have supreme executive powers as well as vetoing powers over Popular assembly. The Guurti will also have special body of official made up of the most experience members who will act as Censors and oversee the electoral process, tax, spending, and general conduct of those in the gurtii as well as those in the Popular Assembly to make sure there is no corruption.

Makes sense, but i divided the guurti and senate so that we can use what exists not what we wish exists.
Currently the elders are mostly ignorant and uneducated but experts at common law or xeer and all that comes with it.
You can have a selected small council of well educated and experienced men from the states to serve the function of censor.
The clan elders do not have the skills to do this currently.
Hopefully we can build a law college for the compilation and study of xeer, and other law including shareeca so that the future crop of
clan elders will have the skills or people working with them that have those skills.

LiquidHYDROGEN wrote:3) As for your first point on federalism. I will say it is too slow and hands-off a process for us. We need a strong centralized government not just for military security, but also for economic dynamism. You need the state to be as hands-on as possible to engineer growth and development like in East Asia. I fear Federalism will be disjointed and weak at worst and slow and unequal economic growth at best.

We discussed this before, the east asian export based model of growth was a unique case and cannot be replicated again.
That model worked because the US needed those countries to develop so that they would not fall into communism, and that their extra industrial capacity could be used against the eastern block.
This is why they provided allot of aid, grants and cheap loans, and massive direct investment, all the while providing millitary protection, andopening their markets for them.

This will not happen again, you will need other models.

gurey25 wrote:
Makes sense, but i divided the guurti and senate so that we can use what exists not what we wish exists.
Currently the elders are mostly ignorant and uneducated but experts at common law or xeer and all that comes with it.
You can have a selected small council of well educated and experienced men from the states to serve the function of censor.
The clan elders do not have the skills to do this currently.
Hopefully we can build a law college for the compilation and study of xeer, and other law including shareeca so that the future crop of
clan elders will have the skills or people working with them that have those skills.

Yeah, I was thinking the current crop of Guurti won't have the necessary skills to do all those tasks but the next generation should be trained and in the process of coming up. You are also right about the Colleges for Xeer, Somali customs/traditions and Shariah. The latter especially so we don't fall into the clutches of wahabi/salafist ideology.

The other reason I decided on the Guurti/Senate was because it is similar to the Iranian system and is very effective against 5th column/green revolution type operations from Western intelligence agencies are able to infiltrate democratic legislative branch of government.

gurey25 wrote: We discussed this before, the east asian export based model of growth was a unique case and cannot be replicated again.
That model worked because the US needed those countries to develop so that they would not fall into communism, and that their extra industrial capacity could be used against the eastern block.
This is why they provided allot of aid, grants and cheap loans, and massive direct investment, all the while providing millitary protection, andopening their markets for them.

This will not happen again, you will need other models.

You are right, it was due to the hysteria over communism that a lot of these countries received Aid and cheap loans. But you are forgetting that these countries were also resource poor. They had very little, if any, natural resources. What I's suggesting is not to ask for Aid or Loans but to subsidize the growth ourselves. The sale of which could've been used to subsidize other sectors such as manufacture and heavy industry. Somalia/Somaliland probably have a lot of untapped minerals and maybe even prospective oil, (I'm pretty sure the was a lot of hoohaa about massive Oil/gas/uranium prospects in Somalia a few years ago) which could be used to raise the necessary capital to fund our true objective, import substitution.

You could even use the current western paranoia over China/Russia/BRIC countries and Islamism as a way to persuade the US/UK that a strong and stable Somalia would be a better ally than a Chinese influenced weak ISIS/alshabab overrun shithole. That should scare the bejeesus out of any US President.

Itrah wrote:

Rambie wrote:But but .. you believe in Somalia!

Without any special privileges to Somaliland. They have to earn the presidency just like any other region of Somalia.

You can keep your Bantu infested Somalia.

Xildiiid wrote:You can keep your Bantu infested Somalia.

Somalia includes Somaliland. You are not an actual country.

How about we export them to Somaliland. Forced relocation to the promised land: Waqooyi Galbeed.

Rambie wrote:

Bandit wrote:I can't believe people are taking this isaaq agenda serious any handicap that things this is a good idea needs to seriously reevaluate his decision making skills
We have a functioning fair system in the 4.5 if you don't like it fuck off

Gosh .... you really hate Isaaq don't you?

Nope am against unfairness but to you i don't think it makes much difference

Bandit wrote:

Rambie wrote:

Bandit wrote:I can't believe people are taking this isaaq agenda serious any handicap that things this is a good idea needs to seriously reevaluate his decision making skills
We have a functioning fair system in the 4.5 if you don't like it fuck off

Gosh .... you really hate Isaaq don't you?

Nope am against unfairness but to you i don't think it makes much difference

So 4.5 is fair?

Rambie wrote:
So 4.5 is fair?

You know if we did one man one vote fair election you still end up minority. That's why you run up north and try to play the big fish in a small pawn you know if you joined somalia you will become small irrelevant fish. The siyaad barre crying is just a cover for this
4.5 yes is fair your people are no where near hawiye or darod in population and it reflects that

Itrah wrote:

Xildiiid wrote:You can keep your Bantu infested Somalia.

Somalia includes Somaliland. You are not an actual country.

How about we export them to Somaliland. Forced relocation to the promised land: Waqooyi Galbeed.

Somaliland was never part of Somalia and we'll make sure there's no connection between the two countries in the future.

Actually, I was not referring to the Somali tribes Wagosha, Mushungli and reer Shabeelle when I wrote Bantu infested. I was talking about the AMISOM hordes.

The tribes I mentioned above are nobler in the mind of any Somalilander compared to the conniving and weak Walaweyn creatures, you included, that's abhorred by everyone.

Xildiiid wrote:Somaliland was never part of Somalia and we'll make sure there's no connection between the two countries in the future.

Xildiid waiting for Somaliland's recognition:



Keep the spirit alive. See you in 2050 and Somaliland still not recognized by anyone.

LiquidHydrogen wrote:You are right, it was due to the hysteria over communism that a lot of these countries received Aid and cheap loans. But you are forgetting that these countries were also resource poor. They had very little, if any, natural resources. What I's suggesting is not to ask for Aid or Loans but to subsidize the growth ourselves. The sale of which could've been used to subsidize other sectors such as manufacture and heavy industry. Somalia/Somaliland probably have a lot of untapped minerals and maybe even prospective oil, (I'm pretty sure the was a lot of hoohaa about massive Oil/gas/uranium prospects in Somalia a few years ago) which could be used to raise the necessary capital to fund our true objective, import substitution.

You could even use the current western paranoia over China/Russia/BRIC countries and Islamism as a way to persuade the US/UK that a strong and stable Somalia would be a better ally than a Chinese influenced weak ISIS/alshabab overrun shithole. That should scare the bejeesus out of any US President.

Too ambitious and not based on reality.
The reality is that somalia is not sovereign and will not reach the sovereignty it had pre 90 for a long time.
whats worse is that most of the world is also not fully sovereign and cannot have an independent economic path.
You should look at the cold war days as the years of freedom, you could really do as you pleased back then, right now there are too many strings.

We will have to wait for other countries to gain independence from the near total western control, before we can join them.

In the mean time we should use the time to build working institutions so that we can develop efficiently as a colonial economy depending on mineral exports and agriculture.

Technology has changed quickly and will continue to change , the model for manufacturing has had revolutionary change.
It has made manufacturing accessible and cheaper to implement if you develop a decentralized mindset.

Right now as we speak there exists and is in use capital equipment that allows you to manufacture the entire set of parts for CAR, Truck,Fridge,Cooker in the space of a regular suburban 2 storey home.

Another similiar sized home can hold all the equipment to build mobile phones and/or laptops/desktops routers and switches and digital radios.

With advances in 3D printing you can expect this to get even crazier.

Import substitution was a spectacular failure back in the 60's to the 80's across the world, this was because it was a top down approach and unsustainable.
A decentralized bottom down approach mimicking the guild artisans of pre-industrial times can be sustainable and a more organic development, and if done well you can sneak it in despite near total domination of your economy by multinational corporations and banks, especially if you include the full set of parallel structures e.g currencies and financial systems.

Bandit wrote:

Rambie wrote:
So 4.5 is fair?

You know if we did one man one vote fair election you still end up minority. That's why you run up north and try to play the big fish in a small pawn you know if you joined somalia you will become small irrelevant fish. The siyaad barre crying is just a cover for this
4.5 yes is fair your people are no where near hawiye or darod in population and it reflects that

No need to beat around the pushes Bandit,
We both know if there was a one man one vote Darood will take more L's


It's a foolish argument from
your side to use SL as an excuse
for Langabnimo. So if Isaaq wanted
to quite from the circus in the south and
regain independence, it's is a sign of Langabnimo? How naive.

Your clan's history is well known from Sanaag to Lower Juba.
Your the ones who's trying to run away from SL to Somalia just
so you can keep hiding among other clans to boost your numbers.

As a half Dir, you wish Isaaq to stay
in Somalia to keep boasting Dir numbers, right?

Your Darood side is ok with 4.5
It's already giving you an unfair advantage but
also because it's gonna insure that Isaaq stay politically handicapped.


All in all, I was just trying
to find a common ground here,
though I assure you if 1 man 1 vote ever take
place, the Darood name will take a massive L

Rambie wrote:
No need to beat around the pushes Bandit,
We both know if there was a one man one vote Darood will take more L's


It's a foolish argument from
your side to use SL as an excuse
for Langabnimo. So if Isaaq wanted
to quite from the circus in the south and
regain independence, it's is a sign of Langabnimo? How naive.

Your clan's history is well known from Sanaag to Lower Juba.
Your the ones who's trying to run away from SL to Somalia just
so you can keep hiding among other clans to boost your numbers.

As a half Dir, you wish Isaaq to stay
in Somalia to keep boasting Dir numbers, right?

Your Darood side is ok with 4.5
It's already giving you an unfair advantage but
also because it's gonna insure that Isaaq stay politically handicapped.


All in all, I was just trying
to find a common ground here,
though I assure you if 1 man 1 vote ever take
place, the Darood name will take a massive L

Actually I want you to separate from dir since your handicaping them but if they do that it means isaaq getting full seats and turning the formula into 5.5 darod right now is divided up thanks to mj who caused divisions.
adding isaaq as a whole clan will only multiply our problem
if I was being qabilist I would've suggested the one district one vote rule
you can play militia up north and isolate yourself will play politics down here and marginalize you. You can probably guess who was behind the idea of giving you 31 seats in the Parliament

Genital Mutilation is the Greatest Threat to the Somali People








The Somali people deserve to be educated about their sexual organs. Female and Male children should be protected from torture and genital mutilation!

We MUST save the children in order to help heal our people and motherland.

May Allah help us. Aamiin.

Peace.



LoveandLight

Very well said Lamagoodles, things are slowly but surely coming back to normal. I am the guy who likes to see the glass half full, instead of half empty.