Pharoah's Baboons

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Grant
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

Kerma was ruled by Egypt as a conquered state. It was never culturally or linguistically incorporated into the Egyptian people. The Kushite culture, language, and people were continuous from Kerma to Meroe.

You are totally misreading both links. North of Eritrea means the Sudan. East of the Nile still means the Sudan and still means the Sahara. The Horn was later. You are still ignoring the Auxum/Sheba connection and the Semitic corridor from Arabia into the Ethiopian highlands. Note that ALL of the sheep and goats came from Semitic-speaking areas. Where is the proof the Bon were not also in the same areas of the Horn or Sudan, or that hunter/gatherer groups did not precede the pastoral Cushites? It is clear Eurasians met the Khoe along some route that involved crossing the Red Sea and then moving south. The folks that met Hatshepsut's expedition and perhaps some others, would not have to have been pure Khoisan. In fact, the genetic evidence is that they were not.

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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

You're conflating the city Kerma and the Kerma kingdom yet you're accusing me of misreading the links I gave you.

The Kerma Kingdom (A Cushitic speaking Kingdom) was incorporated into Egypt during formation of the New Kingdom.

The city Kerma was used as a capital by the Kerma Kingdom but later on the emerging Kingdom of Kush (not a Cushitic speaking Kingdom) that was based on the foundations of the earlier Kingdom that once ruled lower Nubia and upper Egypt used the city for ceremonies and burials because it was an important spiritual and political center. Later on Meroe overtook Kerma as a political and religious center.

The second link states that Proto Cushitic was spoken in the southern hills of the Red Sea which is the Horn of Africa. The link also states that there could be a possible origin of Proto Cushitc to the area north of where it was spoken which is not an established fact but a hypothesis. What's interesting is that Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C and the dominant language group in the Horn of Africa today is still Cushitic.

The Cushitic substratum in Ethio-Semitic points towards an internal shift. The speakers of Ge'ez and other Ethio-Semitic languages were originally Cushitic people who shifted to a Semitic language through an internal process. The Semitic languages of the Horn of Africa are indigenous and not derived from Sabean as you're suggesting.

Bon hunter gatherers are not originally Cushitic speaking people, they adopted a Cushitic language when Cushitic people migrated south from the Horn of Africa to the northern parts of East Africa.

Cut the Eurocentric nonsense.

The Khoisan with the so called 'Eurasian' DNA (back migrations to Africa and at that time white skin color did not even exist) got their genetic admixture from the southern Cushites.

If Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn and along the southern Coast of the Red Sea since 6000 B.C where were the Khoisan?
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Hildiid,

You are seriously confused.

Kush spoke Cushitic and was a continuation of the Kerman people and culture. It was followed by Napata and Meroe, which also did not speak Egyptian.

From yet another source:

http://nubie-international.fr/accueil.p ... 00&lang=en

"Without denying the Egyptian achievement, the kingdoms of Napata and Meroe retrieve ancient local traditions, reasserting their own beliefs. The human component, based on the same ethnical identity, reinforces their roots, thanks to a language descended from the proto-Meroitic of Kerma. The introduction of 'indigenous' elements develops two historical phases: the kingdom of Napata (from 656 to c. 300 BC) and that of Meroe whose extinction as a state occurred in the IV Century AD, following the military campaigns of the kingdom of Axum, in present-day Ethiopia." Meroitic was a local Cushitic language.

The Southern hills of the Red Sea are in the Sudan.

The Semitic languages of the Horn derive from proto-Afroasiatic and do not derive from Sabean. You got that one right, but that doesn't change the source of sheep and goats, the Semitic corridor or the source of the Eurasiatic in African populations.

I am glad to see you do recognize the Bon hunters and their adoption of the Cushitic languages. Perhaps one of these days you will recognize these same people as the Khoisan, or at least as those folks who preceded the pastoralist Cushites.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

So the Meroitic language is Cushitic even though linguists haven't determined wethers its Afro-Asiatic or Nilo-Saharan? lol

Certain elements within the Kingdom of Kush was adopted from the earlier Kerma Kingdom, for instance the use of the city Kerma as a political and spiritual center.

Southern Hills of the Red Sea means the Horn of Africa and Proto Cushitic was spoken in the horn as early as 6000 B.C. making the Cushitic speaking groups indigenous to the region.

You're the one indicating that Ethio-Semitic languages originated outside the region when the Cushitic substratum in these languages indicate that the speakers of Ethio-Semitic were originally Cushitic speaking people who shifted to Semitic after an internal process. The Ethio-Semitic branch is the youngest Semitic branch dating back only 2700 years.

Bon hunter gatherers lived in Eastern Africa and they adopted a Cushitic language after they encountered Cushitic speaking groups migrating south into northern East Africa. They and the Khoisan preceded Cushitic people in East Africa but not the Horn of Africa. So the Land of Punt was inhabited by Cushitic people.

Eurasiatic admixture simply means back migration to Africa introducing genetic mutations that did not exist in the continent, nothing else. I know what it means to Eurocentrists, an attempt to claim our history.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Claiming your history. :lol:

You know where we disagree. I am done and out.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by James Dahl »

Kerma arose during one of the intermediary periods, and isn't easily classified as either Kushite or Nubian or Egyptian, it's something else which no longer exists. Kerma was a really long time ago, more than a thousand years before the Kushite kings who build Merowe. Prior to Merowe the Kushite kings were not at Kerma but rather at Napata.

In ancient times there were many nations that inhabited the Nile valley, the Egyptians for instance were not one nationality but 4 different ones.
It's appealing to identify modern nationalities with ancient ones, but often times ancient nationalities no longer exist, absorbed into someone else.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by gurey25 »

Grant wrote:The folks that met Hatshepsut's expedition and perhaps some others, would not have to have been pure Khoisan. In fact, the genetic evidence is that they were not.
We finally agree.
We have 2 major disagreements.
You seem to place too much emphasis on the semitic influence of yemen.
Sheep, Goats and cattle arrived from Sinai, into northern egypt and then down the nile and the grasslands that are now desert.
Any influence of semites from yemen would be marginal, because the region around damot would be full of Afro-asiatic and most likely cushitic pastoralists who already have their pastoral package.
Caprids and cattle were domesticated in the fertile cresent and anatolia during neolithic period.
One woulr expect the diffusion of animal husbandry to travel down to yemen and the sudan at the same amount of time.
Why would yemen introduce livestock to a region that already has them?
and you are trivializing sea transport.
Building a ship to carry camels and cattle is very hard, and even if it was within the technology of the period,
there is no economic motive.. The idea is truly bizarre.


Intermarriage with afro-asiatics, or cultural and linguistic assimilation would be natural.

but again you inflate the khoe presense in the horn and inflate the importance and influence of semites from yemen,
at least in the period between 2000BC and 1000BC.


i am also interested in the BON adoption of cushtic theory,
wouldnt the existance of southern cushite languages like iraqw in tanzania, say otherwise?
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Gurey,

According to this, African sheep first entered Africa through the northeast and the Horn. There could have been more than one entry. It seems likely they would have arrived with Eurasian immigrants.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/shthrou ... istory.htm

"Domestic sheep probably entered Africa in several waves through northeastern Africa and the Horn of Africa, the earliest beginning about 7700 BP. Four types of sheep are known in Africa today: thin-tailed with hair, thin-tailed with wool, fat-tailed and fat-rumped. North Africa has a wild form of sheep, the wild Barbary sheep (Ammotragus lervia), but they don't appear to have been domesticated or made up part of any domesticated variety today.

The earliest evidence of domestic sheep in Africa is from Nabta Playa, beginning about 7700 BP; sheep are illustrated on Early Dynastic and Middle Kingdom murals and they appear in eastern Africa about 4500 BP (see Horsburgh and Rhines)."

------------------------------------------

Camels are late-comers. And it does look like they arrived with Islam, which makes a lot of sense, given Samaale history.

http://quatr.us/economy/camels.htm

"But around the beginning of the Islamic empire, maybe about 500 AD, somebody in West Asia invented a good pack saddle for camels. After that, people began to use camels as pack animals more and more.

In Africa, beginning around 1000 AD, camels made it much easier to cross the Sahara desert, so people could trade between West Africa and North Africa. This started great trade routes which traders still use today."

http://archaeology.about.com/od/Domesti ... -Camel.htm

"Dromedaries have been identified at sites in southeastern Arabia beginning between 5000-6000 years ago. The site of Mleiha in Syria includes a camel graveyard, dated between 300 BC and 200 AD. Finally, dromedaries from the Horn of Africa were found at the Ethiopian site of Laga Oda, dated 1300-1600 AD."


By these times, sea-faring had greatly improved and the economic benefit of moving camels from southeast Arabia to Africa was clear.
_____________________

I don't understand why you think the presence of Cushitic languages in Tanzania negates the probability of Khoisan in Somalia. The Hadza and Sandawe are in central Tanzania.

http://www.sarada.co.za/traditions/afri ... rn_africa/

"Recent studies have shown that the Hadza and Sandawe are genetically distinct from their farmer and pastoralist neighbours. They, together with the southern African San, retain some of the oldest genetic signatures of all the world’s peoples. On the matter of if or when these click speaking populations were related, the genetic evidence is very clear. A series of studies have shown that the East African and Southern African click-speaking groups have remained genetically isolated from each other for at least the last 70,000 years. This implies that these groups have remained isolated in their respective parts of Africa for a remarkable length of time, presumably separated from each other by the varied Pygmy groups who made the geometric tradition rock art spread across the intervening area of central Africa. We are therefore left with the inescapable conclusion that it was the ancestors of the Hadza and the Sandawe and other related groups whose descendents no longer survive who made the Tanzanian rock art."

We need DNA on the Eyle and other hunting peoples in Somalia. The Eyle sit on an archaeological record which contains their pottery back to the late Neolitic and an earlier record back to the Paleolithic. Several lists of Khoisan relatives contain the Aweer, Eyle and Midgan. It's time to make this definitive.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Xildiiid »

Grant wrote:Claiming your history. :lol:

You know where we disagree. I am done and out.
Of course it's my history, the history of ancestors belong to me.

I don't claim European history because it doesn't interests me one bit but Europeans and other 'westerners' have always been obsessed with our history because they know the Afro-Asiatic root of ancient and classic civilizations including the pride of Europe (Hellenistic Greece).

That's why ambiguous terms such as 'eurasian' and 'caucasoid' are used to suggest an alternative, non African explanation for Africa's unchallenged footprint on human history.

Everything you haven written highlights this Eurocentric narrative.

Nonetheless, let us go through the established facts.

•Proto Cushitic was spoken in the Horn of Africa as early as 6000 B.C. No trace of Khoisan physically, linguistically and culturally. Non!

•Punt, inhabited by Cushitic speaking groups and the Ancient Egyptians specifically the royal lineages of Egypt claimed the Puntites to be their closest kin. The hieroglyphic symbol for foreign people was never used when describing Punt or Puntites.

•The Kerma Kingdom was a Cushitic speaking kingdom unlike the Kingdom of Kush that spoke Meroitic. Kerma became a powerful Kingdom rivaling Egypt (Middle Kingdom) because of its control over Nubian goldmines and vast land trade network most notably with Punt.

•The Kerma Kingdom was absorbed by Ancient Egypt prior to the formation of the Kingdom of Kush.

•Ethio-Semitic languages are indigenous to the Horn but the earliest speakers of the these languages were Cushitic people who shifted to Semitic after an internal process hence the Cushitic substratum and young age for this branch of Semitic.


Btw, the few Gabooye on 123andme cluster with other Somalis and not with Khoisan people.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Hodan94 »

I know im a bit late to the thread but what people like grant are doing is just hiding the truth. To know the riddle of punt will basically mean that religion wise the areas of the bible need to be re thought of. Why is it that they hide the real locatiom of punt although its so plain obvious.
Ok so punt was the real egypt. Many people know that the actual egypt in north africa is those that have migrated from somalia and therefore took their names with them. Just how tribes of yemen took their names with them to places like syria and lebenon and iraq and so on. The pharoahs and the story of the israelites took place in the somali territory. When musa as decided to flee with his people the only way i can cross is not the gulf of aqbah as it has 2 crossings. But the bab el mandeb. Its translation. The gate of tears. Ancient arab stories describe a prince who seperated the 2 lands and destroyed his enemies. Canaan was yemen.

So grant bani yehudi many people are asleep but know that there are people who are on step ahead of your people.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

:lol:

Hodan,

https://books.google.ca/books?id=HGnyk8 ... od&f=false

This link may help you and Hildiid deal with the area between Egypt and Somalia. You are making horses out of wishes, and it won't fly.

Here's the genetics.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evo ... page=0%2C1

"As for Khoisans a lot of genetic evidence would suggest they were a mix of two or perhaps three populations. One that has been in the region for a long time and one that arrived more recently. The former I imagine is the San and the latter the Khoikhois but it is complicated by intermarriage etc. The earlier population have Y chromosome haplogroup A but the latter have haplogroup B meaning they're closest related to fellow click language speakers the Hadza and Sandawe of Tanzania plus the eastern Pygmies. Possibly there were three migrations as the genetics show signs of an isolated population from 150,000 to 60,000 but then people from east Africa interbred with Southern Africans to form the San population (the earlier southern population is only represented in the female line but lost from the direct male line."

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou ... -DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.

Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This suggests that agriculture did not originated with E1b1b tribes, but rather was brought by these H2 and T newcomers to the Levant. They would have blended with E1b1b people and together spread agriculture to the Arabian peninsula and North Africa.

The highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. Ethiopians and Somalians belong mostly to the V22 and V32 (downstream of V12)
subclades, but possess also a minority of M81, M123 and V42 subclades. Among the main subclades of E1b1b only V13 and V65 are absent from the Horn of Africa, and probably originated in northern Africa (V65) or the southern Levant (V13)."


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 95_F1.html

The Khoisan display a wide range of haplotypes. Four elders of different language groups tested as B2b, A3b1, A2, and E1b1b1. The Nama/Hottentot are thought to be a Cushitic-San mix, which seems to cover all the bases.

Notice on the maps in this article that in 8,000 BC the Bushmen extended well into Somalia:

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture/culture.pdf
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Hodan94 »

Say what u want but thats a fact its only a matter of time that people realise, love. Your priceless reaction says it all.
Israel was yemen.
Products of both the real egypt or masar should i say and canaan/ israel included Myrrh and frankinsence cant seem to find that in telaviv or cairo.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Grant »

Gurey, Hilldiid, Hodan,

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/culture/culture.pdf

"Y-chromosome studies have shown the !Kung share a most ancient haplotype with sub-
populations from Ethiopia and the Sudan, suggesting they are parts of an ancient widespread
population later divided by the Bantu expansion. According to an overall survey of genetic
research by Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland, the most deeply ancestral known
human DNA lineages may be those of East Africans, such as the Sandawe, who share many
phenotypic features and a click language with the !Kung. This suggests southern Khoisan-speaking peoples originated in East Africa. The most ancient populations are now believed to also include the Sandawe, Burunge, Gorowaa and Datog people of
Tanzania. The Burunge and Gorowaa migrated to Tanzania from Ethiopia within the last 5,000 years consistent with an ancient
founding population in this area.
Echoes of the earliest language spoken by ancient humans tens of thousands of years ago may
have been preserved in the distinctive clicking sounds still spoken by some existing African tribes."

Note the phrase "founding population in this area." referring to Khoisan from Ethiopia and the Sudan.
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Basra- »

Gurey


R you very very very old? lol
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Re: Pharoah's Baboons

Post by Basra- »

Grant


r u also abdelrahim????? lol
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