Muslim Countries and Democracy: Whats going on ?

[AbdiWahab252]

Is it me or are Muslim countries in general not democratic ?

Why is that the case ?

[Xusseyn]

I think Indonesia is democratic and it's the lagerst Muslim nation.

With the Arabs, i don't think the west would allow it to became democratic becouse most of the population would vote for a religous party as with the Palestinians

[FAH1223]

Secular Pan-Arabism is at an end

the thing is, these dictators and kingdoms are staying because their backers in the Western World consider them "Moderate" meaning they suit the interests of the West, namely the United States. In Africa, well........................... its Africa. There are a couple of countries that had free and fair elections like Mauritania and Senegal, but again, its Africa

Make no mistake, every Muslim country should be democratic, as being under the rule of a tyrant is against the teachings of the Qur'an and isn't Islamic. Look at the Prophet, SAW, and how he ruled. Look at how his successor was chosen and see they didn't rule with tyranny. The BASIC TENETS of democracy are Islamic.

The bullsh1t that happens here in the USA, with all these corporate companies and all that with the elections and their campaigns is a dumb form of democracy and gives off an illusion...

but I'm still voting next year inshallah

[Padishah]

First, we have to make a couple of very fine distinctions.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a Democracy, in the full and proper meaning of the word, currently in existence today. Instead, the majority of the planet's 'free' countries subscribe to a Republican form of Government, concerned mostly with the rule of Law and the maintenance of order and the rights of citizens, with ELECTED representatives to carry out this mandate. To obfuscate this very simple fact, they've taken this system of Government and labelled it a Representative Democracy, when its no such thing.

Secondly, Muslims have never had the experience of being in a Nation-State in their entire history, which is what Democracies work best in. Moreover, Eastern peoples have not had that experience either, instead opting for multi-ethnic/lingual Empires and Kingdoms. Western European peoples have had experience with the Nation-State during Greek times, and after the fall of the Roman Empire during the formation of the European Kingdoms that have pretty much survived to morph into the nations we see today.

Lastly, with the self-interested leaders we have today more concerned with their own personal enrichment or the accumilation of power, and the leaders of the yesteryear obsessed with obliterating our Eastern identity and replacing it with a 'Westernised' shell, have contributed to the chaos and repression we see routinely in Muslim Countries today. Howe Europeans see 'Democracy' developed with their peculiar cultural attitudes, norms and baggage. Given enough time, incentive, and the acknowledgement of our own, distinct cultural and religious values, we can produce a home-grown version of 'Democracy' for ourselves. However, be warned; it took the Europeans close to 800 years to develop their current system.

[paidmonk]

Islam and Democracy do not mix. To be honest, there isn't a single democracy in the world, there hasn't been an official one in centuries.

There are monarchies, constitutional monarchies, socialist republics, and democratic republics, and theocratic republics, even more...

Islam falls under the Theocratic Republic blanket. In a democracy, people make the rules - how can you make the rules if they're set firm in the Quran? Take Iran for example, its a Theocratic Republic. Same with Pakistan, although both countries differ in electoral systems (Pak doesn't have one).

[zulaika]

[quote="AbdiWahab252"]Is it me or are Muslim countries in general not democratic ?

Why is that the case ?[/quote]

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Sir Winston Churchil
British politician (1874 - 1965)

abdi,

if you had to chose one method amid a bevy of "worst"(granted your method is amongst the selection) , wouldn't you stick with the one that benifits you the most and further... one that u can enjoy credit for its formation?

in other words, how does the mentality of "why be u when u can be me" fly when we're both "bad"

[***MUNA***]

To the poster

Islamic countries will never be democratic because the idea of secularism in the Muslim mind is utter madness.

[Xusseyn]

[quote="***MUNA***"]To the poster

Islamic countries will never be democratic because the idea of secularism in the Muslim mind is utter madness.[/quote]

Are you Ayaan Xirsi horta

[***MUNA***]

[quote="Xusseyn"]I think Indonesia is democratic and it's the lagerst Muslim nation.

With the Arabs, i don't think the west would allow it to became democratic becouse most of the population would vote for a religous party as with the Palestinians[/quote]

Not really they have radicals who want to bring sharia law.

[FAH1223]

[quote="***MUNA***"]To the poster

Islamic countries will never be democratic because the idea of secularism in the Muslim mind is utter madness.[/quote]

"Democracy" is the only system of government that is Islamic. It has nothing to do with secularism as the Qur'an is our constitution. Paidmonk has a point in that there are no democracies really and the word has a general meaning, but it should encompass all the "forms" of "democracy" he listed.

Democracy consists of a set of values and procedures. One of most the important values of democracy is people's right to choose their leader and not to be ruled by force or tyranny. This is also an Islamic value, which we call shura or mutual consultation.

Another important value is checks and balances by which powers are distributed and separated in a way that achieves independence of each power and the ability to check and correct each other. In Qur'anic terminology, this is called al-mudafa`ah, which is a very important Islamic concept that protects the society against corruption. Almighty Allah says,

[Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief] (Al-Baqarah 2:251).

As for the procedures of democracy, such as elections, voting, campaigning, etc, these are means for achieving principles. In this sense, democracy is also an Islamic principle. This does not mean that each democratic country is Islamic, but it does mean that each Islamic country should be democratic.

The Qur'an sets three pillars to the Islamic political system...
1)wa amrohom shoora bainahom..... meaning the issues are to be a subject of joint consultancy and decision among themselves....
2)wa itha 7akamtom baina an-nas an ta7komoo bil 3adl...... meaning if you rule among people you should do it abiding to justice....
3) wa a6ee3o Allah wa a6ee3o ar-rasool wa ole al amr minkom.....meaning obey
Allah and obey the Messenger and the people in charge among you...


Put it in in today's context:

1) Democracy (joint consultancy and decision making among all people).


2) Justice (includes both legal and social justice)

3) Discipline to law and order (SHARIAH)....and to state heirarchy...

With time....Muslim rulers (to satisfy their ambitions for dictatorship...) assisted by scholars...(to get some more privileges from rulers)....started (most probably intentionally)...to
overlook and neglect the first and second principles. To highlight and stress the third, nowadays you still find Islamists who enthusiastically argue that Islamic political system is only about obeying the ruler (al ameer or al imam).


That's of course a distortion of the original theme....a big and dangerous one.... which is why we see the state the Islamic world is in today. And, part of why we do not have a Caliphate or any sort of Islamic state worldwide. You can argue that Caliphates weren't democracy in the sense of the "traditional" nation state sense of the word in Greece like Padishah pointed out.

But it was the way the Muslim world operated and it brought it good fortune.

[***MUNA***]

[quote="Xusseyn"][quote="***MUNA***"]To the poster

Islamic countries will never be democratic because the idea of secularism in the Muslim mind is utter madness.[/quote]

Are you Ayaan Xirsi horta [/quote]

Why is it that when someone points about the wrongs and injustice that goes on in the Muslim world people overreact?

[Padishah]

Firstly, lets catergorise Sharia first.

There are those parts of the Sharia that deal with Crime and Punishment, which can serve as the Criminal Code of the State. Then there are those parts that deal with the fair and equitable consideration of inter-personal relationships we can consider Civil Law. There is another part that details the over-riding principles of a Muslim society; things such as equality, justice and the correct application of the law, etc, which can be incorporated as guiding principles into a constitution, along with the shape and form of Government, its separation of powers and the legal rights of each level of government.

What remains are the over-arching principles that guide Islamic Economic theory, an area that is not so fleshed out. Combine this fact with the fact that legislature reserves the bulk of its time either discussing economic an budgetry considerations, or discussing the minutae of foreign policy, we have enough of a role in Government for a Democratically elected legistlature dealing on these issues. They can be given expert legal advice in committees and hearings, then can argue until their faces are blue. They can vote according to the best method forward.

There is no fundamental refusal for Republican processes and Islam, provided bounds are clearly delineated and respected.

[***MUNA***]

[quote="FAH1223"][quote="***MUNA***"]To the poster

Islamic countries will never be democratic because the idea of secularism in the Muslim mind is utter madness.[/quote]

"Democracy" is the only system of government that is Islamic. It has nothing to do with secularism as the Qur'an is our constitution. Paidmonk has a point in that there are no democracies really and the word has a general meaning, but it should encompass all the "forms" of "democracy" he listed.

Democracy consists of a set of values and procedures. One of most the important values of democracy is people's right to choose their leader and not to be ruled by force or tyranny. This is also an Islamic value, which we call shura or mutual consultation.

Another important value is checks and balances by which powers are distributed and separated in a way that achieves independence of each power and the ability to check and correct each other. In Qur'anic terminology, this is called al-mudafa`ah, which is a very important Islamic concept that protects the society against corruption. Almighty Allah says,

[Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief] (Al-Baqarah 2:251).

As for the procedures of democracy, such as elections, voting, campaigning, etc, these are means for achieving principles. In this sense, democracy is also an Islamic principle. This does not mean that each democratic country is Islamic, but it does mean that each Islamic country should be democratic.

The Qur'an sets three pillars to the Islamic political system...
1)wa amrohom shoora bainahom..... meaning the issues are to be a subject of joint consultancy and decision among themselves....
2)wa itha 7akamtom baina an-nas an ta7komoo bil 3adl...... meaning if you rule among people you should do it abiding to justice....
3) wa a6ee3o Allah wa a6ee3o ar-rasool wa ole al amr minkom.....meaning obey
Allah and obey the Messenger and the people in charge among you...


Put it in in today's context:

1) Democracy (joint consultancy and decision making among all people).


2) Justice (includes both legal and social justice)

3) Discipline to law and order (SHARIAH)....and to state heirarchy...

With time....Muslim rulers (to satisfy their ambitions for dictatorship...) assisted by scholars...(to get some more privileges from rulers)....started (most probably intentionally)...to
overlook and neglect the first and second principles. To highlight and stress the third, nowadays you still find Islamists who enthusiastically argue that Islamic political system is only about obeying the ruler (al ameer or al imam).


That's of course a distortion of the original theme....a big and dangerous one.... which is why we see the state the Islamic world is in today. And, part of why we do not have a Caliphate or any sort of Islamic state worldwide.[/quote]

The Islamic world today is corrupt and stuck in the dark ages.

[FAH1223]

[quote="Padishah"]Firstly, lets catergorise Sharia first.

There are those parts of the Sharia that deal with Crime and Punishment, which can serve as the Criminal Code of the State. Then there are those parts that deal with the fair and equitable consideration of inter-personal relationships we can consider Civil Law. There is another part that details the over-riding principles of a Muslim society; things such as equality, justice and the correct application of the law, etc, which can be incorporated as guiding principles into a constitution, along with the shape and form of Government, its separation of powers and the legal rights of each level of government.

What remains are the over-arching principles that guide Islamic Economic theory, an area that is not so fleshed out. Combine this fact with the fact that legislature reserves the bulk of its time either discussing economic an budgetry considerations, or discussing the minutae of foreign policy, we have enough of a role in Government for a Democratically elected legistlature dealing on these issues. They can be given expert legal advice in committees and hearings, and vote accordingly.

There is no fundamental refusal for Republican processes and Islam, provided bounds are clearly delineated and respected.[/quote]

co-sign

[Xusseyn]

[/quote]

Why is it that when someone points about the wrongs and injustice that goes on in the Muslim world people overreact?[/quote]

I am not overreacting, you just sound like someone who is not a fan of Islam.

Are you muslim?