Somalia's Political Future: express your views

[Nolol cusub]

This discussion is open to all groups except traitors.


We always tend to blame others mostly Somali politicians for all of our problems. Now you, as a citizen of Somalia, you have the chance to take a shot in accommodating your fellow Somalis and contribute to a discussion that helps us understand the different positions in Somali politics.


Lets start



Three assumptions:


1. We divide Somali history into two: before the invasion of Ethiopia and after the invasion.

2. We accept emergence of a new religio-political movement that is fighting for the institution of Islamic state in Somalia.

3. Each of us wants to see an independent Somalia where all of our rights are guaranteed: individual, clannish, property, political, and religious.

Five positions that we may be in now:


Position 1.

The views I express here or at home are in line with pre-invasion clan interests and I am content with the way things are developing.


Position 2.

My views are in line with a post invasion reality where there is a pressing need for new political and security regrouping.


Position 3.

I ascribe to the political philosophy of the religious movement and I want to see through an Islamic state in Somalia: espouse different means but same end.


Position 4.


I am very skeptical about the sincerity of the movement and I am worried that the movement may suppress my clan’s right to represent their land.


Position 5


I am coming from different position which is .......you can state what it is………..)

Now, accepting the three assumptions and coming from either of the five positions let us set ourselves the goal of contributing a strong and independent state which accommodates all Somali citizens, respects our property, political, human, religious rights.


How would go about it? be innovative,



First, accept the assumptions. Next, state your position or positions. Finally, show us how you would arrive the goal. You may accommodate positions that you consider important.



Do not be afriad of defending your clan, just make sure you state what position you are coming from so that other people can follow what you are saying.


Refrain from name calling while taking no prisoners.

Nolol Cusub

[Somaliweyn]

Nolol Cusub,

Good to see a mature discussion in which Somalis can exchange their views regarding the future of Somalia. This forum was going the wrong direction with the useless topics and usefull ones been ruined by insults and childesh behaviour.

----

First of all, I think this current Ethiopian occupation marks the beginning of the end of the long Somali civil war. From 1991 till 28 dec 2006, Somali groups were deadlocked in a spiral of mistrust, conflict and opportunism. The Ethiopian occupation is the start of a new era in which Somalis need to rethink and reprioritize their interest and security within the Horn of Africa and wider world.

It is also no surprise that the current actors in this Ethiopian occupation and its puppet regime are the same actors in the long Somali civil war. Is this coincidence? Or something which was to be expected since these actors were also the same ones that kept Somali groups locked in the vicious cicle of mistrust and conflict?

So the first thing Somali groups need to do is to re-evaluate the Somali civil war, and see how their interest&security has improved or worsened. Lessons should be drawn from it, while also looking at how Somalia and Somalis in general have improved or worsened.

---

My position is that of case 2.

We all have an idea about the sequence of events that lead to this Ethiopian invasion, we also have an idea about the long-term decadence of the civil war which enabled the Ethiopians to play out one Somali group against the other, and eventually occupy the capital of Somalia. By knowing and acknowledging this, we can move on and look for ways to ridd ourselves from this occupation, which means going into alliances with whatever Somali group despite the record between you two in the civil war or prior that period.

That is the immediate political line every Somali group should accept: First and foremost, the defeat of Ethiopian occupation and foreign intermingling with Somali affaires.


On the long-term, we should adopt a new kind of standars when it comes to dealing with Somali groups. For example, we are now at crossroads. Somali groups can choose to fight the Ethiopian occupation or passively/actively accommodate themselves to the occupation, and even collaborate with Addis Abebba.

But this must have consequences for their future. ''Bad guys'' should be punished, ''good guys'' rewarded. In Somalia it has always been the other way around: bad guys are rewared, good guys are punished. Just look at the advent of European imperialism in Somali lands at the end of 19th century and start of 20th century.

Some groups chose to accomodate themselves to the British or Italians, others chose to sacrifice everything to resist the British or Italian expansion into Somali lands. The European powers adopted a policy of rewarding ''friendly groups'' and punishing ''hostile groups'', which eventually resulted in: Somali groups that have bravely fought against the occupation to be reduced to a minority status in Politics, economics and even society. While the groups that collaborated with the Europeans have become dominant in Somali poltics, economics and population-wise.

This experience is engraved in Somali memory which has lead nowadays to cowardice mentality. Every Somali group has this mentality of: ''If we fight against the occupation, we will be worse off..but if we accomodate or assist it, we can gain'' This kind of mentality is also reinforced by how the invader/occupier behaves: punishing ''rebellious groups'', and leaving other groups alone or even assisting them in their ambitions depending on their good behaviour.

So, since the Ethiopian invasion divides Somali history into two era's....it should be logical that in the future Somali groups should be judged by their behaviour during the era of occupation. Groups that assist the Ethiopian occupation should be marginalized in terms of politics, economics and geography.

Heroes of yesterday, today and tommorow must be rewarded for their bravery and patriotism.

---


As for the religious movement in Somalia, it is a real force...but not because their ideology is appealing to Somali people, but because they are seen as the only group capable of restoring peace and stability. Ofcourse, they have shown to be capable of accomplishing this widely desired peace and stability, but what I doubt about is their ability to solve the Somali problem which has ruined everything throughout the history of Somalis: Somali clannism.

So far, they have adopted a policy of: ''We are all Muslims and Somalis'' ''Clannism is bad, lets not talk about it'' Ofcourse, hushing the problem won't make it dissapear.

And their behaviour after they took political power in Mogadishu and Southern Somalia shows that they are incapable of solving this enigma, which has been their downfall and the reason why they could not get mass support from majority of Somali groups.

[Nolol cusub]

Important points by Somaliweyn.


1. Position two is the closest road to the goal of contributing a strong and independent state which accommodates all Somali citizens, respects our property, political, human, and religious rights



2. Traitors must be punished. Citizenship must be rewarded.


“That is the immediate political line every Somali group should accept: First and foremost, the defeat of Ethiopian occupation and foreign intermingling with Somali affaires”



3. Religious movement has pushed itself into fore front of Somali politics and it is here to stay.


4. Their pre invasion strategy of the tackling the issue of clanism was not successful. An inclusive and innovative political strategy is the way to go forward. You just can’t suppress a long standing legitimate clan grievances.


5. Position two also implies acknowledgment of the past mistakes and willingness to make concession to each other

“We all have an idea about the sequence of events that lead to this Ethiopian invasion, we also have an idea about the long-term decadence of the civil war which enabled the Ethiopians to play out one Somali group against the other, and eventually occupy the capital of Somalia.”



-----



I agree with Somaliweyn in punishing traitors. I would add this.

We need to define traitors properly. We need to make a distinction between any known individual who collaborated with Ethiopian invasion in any form and the major somali clans or subclans which opposed Mogadishu's religious movement on various grounds.

How do we punish?

We should go after the individuals not clans or subclans. Let say your clan produced 20 traitors then we shall take those twenty individuals. Your clan furnished 3000 militia to the enemy you shall give us the three 3000 militia. We shall bring them justices: who killed who, who raped who. No mercy. Those who didn't kill or rape should be subjected to hard labor.


Other points that need follow up:


Position 3 accomodating position 4?

Position 4 accomodate position 3?



Regionalist or supportors of groups like Galmudug supporters, Southeastern progressivist may express their views.


Abdiwahab and Gedo Boy:



Supporters of Religious movement can also join the discussion and express your views


We also welcome the supporters of Islamic movement.



NC

[Nolol cusub]

Pro Magadishu religious movement you may express your views on how you go about this.


Some particular groups that are baised to this group who should participate:

Alchemist, Gifted and everyone out there who supports Mogadishu's religeo-political movement.



I am here to be a moderator and challenge you to be more inclusive.




NC

[MJ-Pride]

You said traitors are not welcomed in this discussion,so whats your definition of traitor? If supporting the Transitional Federal Government makes me a traitor,t hen I guess I am not invited in this discussion? I condemn the Ethiopian occupation of Somalia and support the Transitional Federal Government. I am against religious groups shielding the Islam and leading their people to harms way. I need to know if this group is accepting my contribution in their discussion

[Adan*5]

Somaliweyn wrote

"First of all, I think this current Ethiopian occupation marks the beginning of the end of the long Somali civil war. From 1991 till 28 dec 2006, Somali groups were deadlocked in a spiral of mistrust, conflict and opportunism. The Ethiopian occupation is the start of a new era in which Somalis need to rethink and reprioritize their interest and security within the Horn of Africa and wider world."

I agree with you.We have achieved major thing in this conflict..the war has been transformed into new era of focusing on external enemy,leaving behind clan war and stupid power struggle within somalis, now things are much clear which can lead us to brighter future..

[Shirib]

[quote="Nolol cusub"]Position 3.

I ascribe to the political philosophy of the religious movement and I want to see through an Islamic state in Somalia: espouse different means but same end.[/quote]

I am for ruling Somalia by Islamic Sharia.

I agree that after 17 years of war and destruction people will not become pious and religious over night. But I am for moving towards a state that runs by Islamic Sharia.

The Sharia is the law of Allah and is the perfect way of rule. Through out history when the Muslims were being governed by Islamic Sharia they were the most powerful people on Earth this is true in the two instances that it was happening in the times of the Caliphate when Islam conquered most of the known world, and again when the Ottoman Caliphate after the Crusades.

Regardless Somalia is all Muslim and need to be governed by the laws of Islam. When Islam people is embraced we will rise. When we stick with Clan politics and different secular ideologies we will stay in Jahilliyah.

Secularim means that mans laws are the highest law of the land and Allah law is inferior. I am 100% against this.

We need educated religous men to lead us if not the Executive, and Legislative branches atleast the Judicial branch should be entirely Islamic Sharia and they should hold more power then the two other branches of government.

Those are my views.

[Diyeeshaha_Tolka]

nolol cusub..aka AbdiWahab,,,sacad wajiyo badane maalinba waxbaad iska soo dhigaysaa ,,
bal inooga waran adeerkaa maquuste ayaa xabsigii adis-ababa laga soo daayey wlc pary ma u sameyseen

[Af_libaax]

Nolol

Somalia's political future is deadlock with Clan Vision , even if the Ethiopians driven out by tomorow,the Cycle of 4.5 project will remain huge problem in somali politics , Plus foreign intervention in Somali affairs will continue foreseeable future as long as Somalis divided by Clan politics .. the only optional reckon by majority somalis is the faith of Islam and it has both inside and outside standing enemies .

---Kaftan --there will be no chance for Socialism------- !

,.

[Luq_Ganane]

Obviously Islamic Sharicah in its purest sense would be the best option. However a pure Islamic movement is impossible in todays fragmented Somali society. The problem I have with a "Islamic movement" is the lack of transparancy. Just like the ICU, so called Wadaads can hide clan neopitism, favoritism by simply growing a beard, putting on a turban and speaking zealously about Islam. A evengelical Warlord who's "Seen the light" can hijack the movement to torment certain clans for his clannish ambitions and anybody who speaks out at this inustice could be shot on the spot as 'fighting against the Religion'. What this really does is manufacture monsters in that normal Islam loving Somalis who may not be educated in the Religion take a very Anti-Islam stance and their bitterness at the inustice they went through transcends clan lines and goes into a bitterness towards Islam, which is VERY dangerous. Therefore as of right now, NO to any Islamic movements for now. The religion is pure, and if it cannot be implemented in its purest form it shouldn't be implemented at all. In my opinion NO Sharicah is better than a flawed Sharicah.


What do I advocate?

-A IMMIDIETE , unconditional withdrawal of Ethiopian colonialists. Any Somali with a hint of nationalism cannot tolerate our former whipping boys roaming our capitol with impunity.

How?

Herin lies the million dollar question. The "liberation movements" are so fuzzy, with different agendas, players, motives etc, that you don't know who to support or who to put your weight behind. Time will tell

[Twisted_Logic]

[quote="Luq_Ganane"]Obviously Islamic Sharicah in its purest sense would be the best option. However a pure Islamic movement is impossible in todays fragmented Somali society. The problem I have with a "Islamic movement" is the lack of transparancy. Just like the ICU, so called Wadaads can hide clan neopitism, favoritism by simply growing a beard, putting on a turban and speaking zealously about Islam. Anybody who speaks out at this inustice could be shot on the spot as 'fighting against the Religion'. What this really does is manufacture monsters in that normal Islam loving Somalis who may not be educated in the Religion take a very Anti-Islam stance and their bitterness at the inustice they went through transcends clan lines and goes into a bitterness towards Islam, which is VERY dangerous. Therefore as of right now, NO to any Islamic movements for now. The religion is pure, and if it cannot be implemented in its purest form it shouldn't be implemented at all. In my opinion NO Sharicah is better than a flawed Sharicah.


What do I advocate?

-A IMMIDIETE , unconditional withdrawal of Ethiopian colonialists. Any Somali with a hint of nationalism cannot tolerate our former whipping boys roaming our capitol with impunity.

How?

Herin lies the million dollar question. The "liberation movements" are so fuzzy, with different agendas, players, motives etc, that you don't know who to support or who to put your weight behind.[/quote]

OMG What do you have against Jeffersonian liberty and democracy?

[Spookie]

Support the TFG and you got Ethiopia taking over. Support the UIC appearing too religious and you got the U.S on your door-steps. Either way you doomed so here is my plan...

First, the removal of all habashi bastards from Somalia.

Second, the beheading of every warlord. (no jail won't work, their mindset is too destructive and they can influence others to fight in their cause)

Third, build a clan based committee where every clan can pick one person to represent them. This committee can construct a new constitution and parliament.

Fourth, hold elections where the people vote. (we know what happened last time when the parliament tried to old elections)

Fifth, a new plan to build the country's economy by the people themselves just like Japan did after WWII.

[Gedo_Boy]

"Fifth, a new plan to build the country's economy by the people themselves just like Japan did after WWII."

^^^ Let's not forget Japan was on the verge of being a technological & military superpower BEFORE the war started so they already had advanced & developed human capital.

That analogy doesn't work in Africa.

[sadeboi]

[quote]OMG Shocked What do you have against Jeffersonian liberty and democracy?[/quote]

What do you have against IMPLEMENTING SHARIAH LAW?

[Spookie]

[quote="Gedo_Boy"]"Fifth, a new plan to build the country's economy by the people themselves just like Japan did after WWII."

^^^ Let's not forget Japan was on the verge of being a technological & military superpower BEFORE the war started so they already had advanced & developed human capital.

That analogy doesn't work in Africa.[/quote]

Exactly, the key word being "human capital". Right after the war, "Made in Japan" became a famous tag. They applied good quality with quantity and sold it for a cheap price. The price rose by itself.

Now Somalis are good at business. They can apply that and make it effective. Japan became a waste land after WWII, they had to start from scratch. The same tactic from a different approach can work.