How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

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How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Image

Tom Friedman had an especially fatuous column in Sunday's New York Times, which is saying something given his well-established capacity for smug self-assurance. According to Friedman, the big challenge we face in the Arab and Islamic world is "the Narrative" -- his patronizing term for Muslim views about America's supposedly negative role in the region. If Muslims weren't so irrational, he thinks, they would recognize that "U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny." He concedes that we made a few mistakes here and there (such as at Abu Ghraib), but the real problem is all those anti-American fairy tales that Muslims tell each other to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims."

Now I don't think the issue is quite that simple, but the comment got me thinking: How many Muslims has the United States killed in the past thirty years, and how many Americans have been killed by Muslims? Coming up with a precise answer to this question is probably impossible, but it is also not necessary, because the rough numbers are so clearly lopsided.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis, based on estimates deliberately chosen to favor the United States. Specifically, I have taken the low estimates of Muslim fatalities, along with much more reliable figures for U.S. deaths.

Image

To repeat: I have deliberately selected "low-end" estimates for Muslim fatalities, so these figures present the "best case" for the United States. Even so, the United States has killed nearly 30 Muslims for every American lost. The real ratio is probably much higher, and a reasonable upper bound for Muslim fatalities (based mostly on higher estimates of "excess deaths" in Iraq due to the sanctions regime and the post-2003 occupation) is well over one million, equivalent to over 100 Muslim fatalities for every American lost.

Figures like these should be used with caution, of course, and several obvious caveats apply. To begin with, the United States is not solely responsible for some of those fatalities, most notably in the case of the "excess deaths" attributable to the U.N. sanctions regime against Iraq. Saddam Hussein clearly deserves much of the blame for these "excess deaths," insofar as he could have complied with Security Council resolutions and gotten the sanctions lifted or used the "oil for food" problem properly. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the United States (and the other SC members) knew that keeping the sanctions in place would cause tens of thousands of innocent people to die and we went ahead anyway.

Similarly, the United States is not solely to blame for the sectarian violence that engulfed Iraq after the 2003 invasion. U.S. forces killed many Iraqis, to be sure, but plenty of Shiites, Kurds, Sunnis, and foreign infiltrators were pulling triggers and planting bombs too. Yet it is still the case that the United States invaded a country that had not attacked us, dismantled its regime, and took hardly any precautions to prevent the (predictable) outbreak of violence. Having uncapped the volcano, we are hardly blameless, and that goes for pundits like Friedman who enthusiastically endorsed the original invasion.

Third, the fact that people died as a result of certain U.S. actions does not by itself mean that those policy decisions were wrong. I'm a realist, and I accept the unfortunate fact that international politics is a rough business and sometimes innocent people die as a result of actions that may in fact be justifiable. For example, I don't think it was wrong to expel Iraq from Kuwait in 1991 or to topple the Taliban in 2001. Nor do I think it was wrong to try to catch Bin Laden -- even though people died in the attempt -- and I would support similar efforts to capture him today even if it placed more people at risk. In other words, a full assessment of U.S. policy would have to weigh these regrettable costs against the alleged benefits to the United States itself or the international community as a whole.

Yet if you really want to know "why they hate us," the numbers presented above cannot be ignored. Even if we view these figures with skepticism and discount the numbers a lot, the fact remains that the United States has killed a very large number of Arab or Muslim individuals over the past three decades. Even though we had just cause and the right intentions in some cases (as in the first Gulf War), our actions were indefensible (maybe even criminal) in others.

It is also striking to observe that virtually all of the Muslim deaths were the direct or indirect consequence of official U.S. government policy. By contrast, most of the Americans killed by Muslims were the victims of non-state terrorist groups such as al Qaeda or the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans should also bear in mind that the figures reported above omit the Arabs and Muslims killed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Given our generous and unconditional support for Israel's policy towards the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular, Muslims rightly hold us partly responsible for those victims too.

Contrary to what Friedman thinks, our real problem isn't a fictitious Muslim "narrative" about America's role in the region; it is mostly the actual things we have been doing in recent years. To say that in no way justifies anti-American terrorism or absolves other societies of responsibility for their own mistakes or misdeeds. But the self-righteousness on display in Friedman's op-ed isn't just simplistic; it is actively harmful. Why? Because whitewashing our own misconduct makes it harder for Americans to figure out why their country is so unpopular and makes us less likely to consider different (and more effective) approaches.

Some degree of anti-Americanism may reflect ideology, distorted history, or a foreign government's attempt to shift blame onto others (a practice that all governments indulge in), but a lot of it is the inevitable result of policies that the American people have supported in the past. When you kill tens of thousands of people in other countries -- and sometimes for no good reason -- you shouldn't be surprised when people in those countries are enraged by this behavior and interested in revenge. After all, how did we react after September 11?

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/200 ... t_30_years
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

No. The article wasn't written by a conspiracy nut or an al-Qaeda sympathizer. It was written by Stephen M. Walt, a respected professor at Harvard University.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by Goljano Lion »

Arabman

Uncle Sam is doing a good job by killing these Arabs camel fuckers
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

Goljano Lion wrote:Arabman

Uncle Sam is doing a good job by killing these Arabs camel fuckers
And you approve of that?
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by Goljano Lion »

~Arabman~ wrote:
Goljano Lion wrote:Arabman

Uncle Sam is doing a good job by killing these Arabs camel fuckers
And you approve of that?
if you find my comments offensive then maybe its time these camel phokers clean up their acts, don't you think so
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by nomadicwarlord »

The US is driven by their own interests, basically each country is like that. Realism at best. You should ask yourself how many Muslims have been killed at the hands of other Muslims? Ponder on that.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

Goljano Lion wrote:if you find my comments offensive then maybe its time these camel phokers clean up their acts, don't you think so
What should they do to clean up their acts?
nomadicwarlord wrote:The US is driven by their own interests, basically each country is like that. Realism at best. You should ask yourself how many Muslims have been killed at the hands of other Muslims? Ponder on that.
So, you're saying it's justified for the US to invade/occupy a Muslim country and cause millions of deaths/displacements if that's in its interest? The question you asked me to ponder on is misplaced. For one, I could ask you to ponder on how many non-Muslims (mainly Christians) have been killed at the hands of other non-Muslims (mainly Christians). In the past 100 years, more than 100 million non-Muslims have been killed at the hands of other non-Muslims. In the past 100 years, the number of Muslims killed by other Muslims doesn't exceed 10 millions. Now, ponder on that.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by nomadicwarlord »

That was just a mere observation. We can't confront American sinister ambitions when we are divided. Forget 10 million, killing 10 Muslims using Islam as justification is bothersome. Ponder on it more.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

nomadicwarlord wrote:That was just a mere observation. We can't confront American sinister ambitions when we are divided. Forget 10 million, killing 10 Muslims using Islam as justification is bothersome. Ponder on it more.
So, how do we get united?
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by edleh »

Isaac Newton said three centuries ago, "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

It is therefore astonishing that it is Christians, especially of the fundamentalist variety, who have inflicted the most violence in the last few centuries. And it is mostly the weak and helpless that they have victimized.

Who massacred 12-15 million Native Americans? Was it Hindus? Buddhists? Muslims? No, it was White Christians.

Who massacred 40-100 million Africans during the Black Holocaust of Slavery and the Slave Trade? White Christians.

Who massacred 12 million civilians during the Holocaust of World War II? Nazi White Christians.

Who massacred and starved up to 20 million civilians in the Soviet Union, during World War II? White Christians of the Russian variety.

Who massacred 3-5 million Vietnamese during the 1950s-1970s? White Christians. (Any Black or Brown soldiers were just tagging along.)

Who has massacred over 2 million Iraqis since 1991? I'm getting tired of my own refrain.

So the fault is not in being American, dear Brutus, but in our White Christianness that we are violent.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by nomadicwarlord »

~Arabman~ wrote:
nomadicwarlord wrote:That was just a mere observation. We can't confront American sinister ambitions when we are divided. Forget 10 million, killing 10 Muslims using Islam as justification is bothersome. Ponder on it more.
So, how do we get united?
By focusing on our own interests. Common goals will unite us.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by Mad May »

Not enough.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by *Nobleman* »

Mad May wrote:Not enough.

:| Talk about being retarded.


Far too many, the professor in the article is right. If it is not direct bombings, then some sort of other interference i.e arming and funding certain factions or generally their foreign policy
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by Xamud. »

Goljano Lion wrote:Arabman

Uncle Sam is doing a good job by killing these Arabs camel fuckers
You fukking bastard watch your mouth you piece of shidh.
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Re: How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years?

Post by ~Arabman~ »

*Nobleman* wrote:Far too many, the professor in the article is right. If it is not direct bombings, then some sort of other interference i.e arming and funding certain factions or generally their foreign policy
Most of the killings in the Muslim world can be attributed to American/European interferences.
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