James Dahl so gal

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SultanOrder
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James Dahl so gal

Post by SultanOrder »

Hey I remember one time you said you really like the Qur'an but not the Hadith? Do you believe the Qur'an but not the hadith? :|
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Perfect_Order wrote:Hey I remember one time you said you really like the Qur'an but not the Hadith? Do you believe the Qur'an but not the hadith? :|
I don't consider hadith a reliable source of information. We can be relatively sure that the Qu'ran is narrated by the Prophet Muhammed, but hadith?
The problem for me is they are all too convenient. The Qu'ran will say something about women being equal to men, so of course there is some hadith explaining how they're not REALLY equal. Or the Qu'ran will say that people will be judged by Allah by their thoughts and deeds regardless of their religion, so of course there is a hadith saying how only Muslims go to Jannah. It all sounds like making loopholes to me, to be honest.
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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An example is right now in Somalia, Muslims are killing Muslims in the name of Allah, a grave sin.

The Qu'ran states that rejecting Islam and becoming a murtad is a sin, but leaves punishment of that sin up to Allah, where it should be. The shedding of blood of Muslims is strictly forbidden.

The politics of the Islamic middle ages however, demanding the shedding of blood of fellow Muslims, and lots of it, due to the power struggles. Thus I consider the hadith that allow Muslims to kill each other "legally" by designating each other as apostates is extremely dodgy and goes against the intent and letter of the Qu'ran. I suspect it was invented by either the Abbasids to kill Ummayads or Fatimids "legally".
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Interesting. Lets start with the beginning, you say that "we can be relatively sure that the Qur'an is narrated by the prophet Muhammed". So you like the figure of Muhammed peace be upon him, and the Qur'an. Do you take the prophet Muhammed as a Prophet of God then?
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Perfect_Order wrote:Interesting. Lets start with the beginning, you say that "we can be relatively sure that the Qur'an is narrated by the prophet Muhammed". So you like the figure of Muhammed peace be upon him, and the Qur'an. Do you take the prophet Muhammed as a Prophet of God then?
It's hard to say, I'm certainly not qualified to answer that question, I don't think anyone is.
The Qu'ran itself though, if you take it as a book of philosophical and legal ideas, is an excellent vision of an ideal society. The deeper questions are ones that are by definition unanswerable though, they are articles of faith.
I suppose I'll find out the truth when I'm dead.
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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James Dahl wrote: It's hard to say, I'm certainly not qualified to answer that question, I don't think anyone is.
The Qu'ran itself though, if you take it as a book of philosophical and legal ideas, is an excellent vision of an ideal society. The deeper questions are ones that are by definition unanswerable though, they are articles of faith.
I suppose I'll find out the truth when I'm dead.
Are you a muslim convert? Married to a somali woman?
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Yeah I suppose you will. Reminds me of a hadith attributed the Ali during his Caliphate, when an atheist came up to him and debated with him. Ali ra said "hey if your right then nothing will happen to me and I have lived an upright life, while if I am right then your in trouble."

So ok lets go back further do then even believe in God/Allah?
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Perfect_Order wrote:Yeah I suppose you will. Reminds me of a hadith attributed the Ali during his Caliphate, when an atheist came up to him and debated with him. Ali ra said "hey if your right then nothing will happen to me and I have lived an upright life, while if I am right then your in trouble."

So ok lets go back further do then even believe in God/Allah?
What you're referring to is Pascal's Wager, and dates to the French Enlightenment period, so if someone told you it's a hadith then chalk up one more invented hadith. :lol:

I don't reject the existence of God as a myth, but I cannot accept it as a certainty either. I work on the assumption that God may exist, but what that means exactly I don't know.
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Re: James Dahl so gal

Post by SultanOrder »

C'mon James don't be so naive

just like how Colombus discovered the americas
Galileo was the first to know the earth revolved around the sun
Dante created the divine comedy from his own thoughts
Roger Bacon is the originator of the experimental method
etc

And now it is Pasquels wager though your knowledge of any other civilization is minuscule? To the point where you are confident to label it as fabricated.
How much of what you were taught is really correct, and not just the usurpation of a group of people with their own bias and bigotry?
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Galileo was the first to know the earth revolved around the sun
Actualy it was Nicolaus Copernicus who formulated this theory ,through the related work of the Muslim astronomers,

Dante created the divine comedy from his own thoughts
Dantes works were plagarized version of the Prophets (SAW) night journey
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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Seemeyer lol my point was history isn't necessarily only how one group narrates it, all my examples are what is generally taught but isn't factual.

James I think I understand why you have very hard time accepting that a large body such as the hadith work could be so accurate. One it is unique in the fact that no other person in history had been paid attention so much, where his eating habits, his sleeping, his manner of speaking, his etiquettes, let alone what he said word for word had been memorized and eventually recorded. And this is very alien to western history in a sense, hardly any of Jesus's (as) sayings are recorded and more is paid attention to the letters of his apostles etc. So, coming from this background it seems very likely, and I can understand that.
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Re: James Dahl so gal

Post by Voltage »

James Dahl wrote:An example is right now in Somalia, Muslims are killing Muslims in the name of Allah, a grave sin.

The Qu'ran states that rejecting Islam and becoming a murtad is a sin, but leaves punishment of that sin up to Allah, where it should be. The shedding of blood of Muslims is strictly forbidden.

The politics of the Islamic middle ages however, demanding the shedding of blood of fellow Muslims, and lots of it, due to the power struggles. Thus I consider the hadith that allow Muslims to kill each other "legally" by designating each other as apostates is extremely dodgy and goes against the intent and letter of the Qu'ran. I suspect it was invented by either the Abbasids to kill Ummayads or Fatimids "legally".
That is really interesting. I really didn't even know the punishment of apostate is not in the Qur'an. Also I don't think stoning adulterers is also in the Qur'an. James you remind me of a group called "Qur'aniyuun" who reject the Hadiith altogether. If that is the case Muslims are told to pray but only in the Hadiith do they know the process of praying and making wudu, etc. But I am of the opinion humans not infallible and there isn't complete certainty with Hadiith as you can be with the immortalized Qur'an.
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Re: James Dahl so gal

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^
Got you sxb
They'll have us believe Jean-François Champollion was the first to decypher ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs in 1822,
When Muslim Scholars cracked it 800 years earlier

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/oct/0 ... ation.arts
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Re: James Dahl so gal

Post by melo »

James Dahl wrote:
Perfect_Order wrote:Hey I remember one time you said you really like the Qur'an but not the Hadith? Do you believe the Qur'an but not the hadith? :|
I don't consider hadith a reliable source of information. We can be relatively sure that the Qu'ran is narrated by the Prophet Muhammed, but hadith?
The problem for me is they are all too convenient. The Qu'ran will say something about women being equal to men, so of course there is some hadith explaining how they're not REALLY equal. Or the Qu'ran will say that people will be judged by Allah by their thoughts and deeds regardless of their religion, so of course there is a hadith saying how only Muslims go to Jannah. It all sounds like making loopholes to me, to be honest.

Eh, the Inheritance laws which is one of the battlegrounds feminists have against Islam is found in the Quran. Allah SWT also says in the Quran "And the man is not like the woman" and that Men are qawwamuun over women, which is to say God has given Men responsibility over women. As for Muslims going to heaven, It is also written in the Quran that Allah SWT only accepts Islam and that everything else will be rejected.

Without the axaadiith, our religion of Islam would be incomplete. Simply praying would be an experiment because the Quran doesn't really tell you how to pray. The sahaba were the best because they had the walking Quran amongst them. How then, can generations of Muslims tap into that if we reject the axaadiith?
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Re: James Dahl so gal

Post by Voltage »

Perfect_Order wrote: Galileo was the first to know the earth revolved around the sun
Incorrect.
By the Sun and its morning brightness, and the moon when it follows it, and the day when it displays it, and the night when it conceals it (Chapter of the Sun, 1-4)"
The Qur'an specifically says that the Sun is the center of the Universe, that it is the MOON which follows it, and that is night and day which conceal the sun with respect to their position of time, that being the EARTH'S MOVEMENT, its revolution around the sun that accounts for day and night....essentially the SUN IS THE CENTER. This was when the rest of the world until centuries later thought in terms of geo-centrism.

The Moon rotates on the Earth's axis and essentially it ORBITS the Earth. The Earth and Moon system in turn orbit the Sun as a pair which means the moon orbits the sun.
Last edited by Voltage on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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