Islamic law and Shabaab (supporters)

[Shaarib24]

More than anything there is one thing I have yet to fully understand with Shabaab and it's supporters. Ever since the start of it's war against the Somali government its leaders and supporters have , at different times, labeled the members of the government, its supporters and even those who live in the areas controlled by it as kufaar. From what people who know much more about islamic law tell me one of two things MUST be true ;

1) Shabaab is right , and since they are right the only logical conclussion is that everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed for leaving the religion. Or
2) Shabaab is wrong, and since they are wrong the only logical conclussion is that every one of its leaders who have made that statement is himself no longer a muslim.

Is that a fair assesment or are there any redeeming aspects ?

[Shirib]

There's no gaal's in Somalia, a bunch of munafiqiin, but no gaal

[Arabmann]

More than anything there is one thing I have yet to fully understand with Shabaab and it's supporters. Ever since the start of it's war against the Somali government its leaders and supporters have , at different times, labeled the members of the government, its supporters and even those who live in the areas controlled by it as kufaar. From what people who know much more about islamic law tell me one of two things MUST be true ;

1) Shabaab is right , and since they are right the only logical conclussion is that everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed for leaving the religion. Or
2) Shabaab is wrong, and since they are wrong the only logical conclussion is that every one of its leaders who have made that statement is himself no longer a muslim.

Is that a fair assesment or are there any redeeming aspects ?

It isn't a fair assessment. For instance, if your ask the people who told you about those two things if Alawis are Muslims, the probability of them saying no is very high. Now, will that make them no longer Muslims? Moreover, there are things if you do that takes you outside the fold of Islam. Chances are you don't know much about Islam, and are now discovering many things about it. If you're a Muslim, it's your duty to study and learn Islam, not one issue at a time, like the issue of your topic. This issue is complex and not as simple as you make it so. Shabaab mustn't have labeled the government and its supporters kufaar out of the blue; they must have their own reasoning, conclusion, etc. Is it based on what they concluded about verse 5:51-52? Maybe. We don't have the facts here. We don't even have the sources of your allegations, that Shabaab labeled the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar. Did Shabaab carry out what you stated about "everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed"? Did they actually execute everyone in areas they captured? Sounds like the people who told you about those two things were exaggerating or their Islamic knowledge insufficient/flawed.

[Shaarib24]

Is that a fair assesment or are there any redeeming aspects ?

It isn't a fair assessment. For instance, if your ask the people who told you about those two things if Alawis are Muslims, the probability of them saying no is very high. Now, will that make them no longer Muslims? Moreover, there are things if you do that takes you outside the fold of Islam. Chances are you don't know much about Islam, and are now discovering many things about it. If you're a Muslim, it's your duty to study and learn Islam, not one issue at a time, like the issue of your topic. This issue is complex and not as simple as you make it so. Shabaab mustn't have labeled the government and its supporters kufaar out of the blue; they must have their own reasoning, conclusion, etc. Is it based on what they concluded about verse 5:51-52? Maybe. We don't have the facts here. We don't even have the sources of your allegations, that Shabaab labeled the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar. Did Shabaab carry out what you stated about "everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed"? Did they actually execute everyone in areas they captured? Sounds like the people who told you about those two things were exaggerating or their Islamic knowledge insufficient/flawed.[/quote]
[/quote]

How is that when a simple question is asked of Shabaab or it's supporters that they cloud the issue ? I did not ask about Syrians, nor the issue about the level of knowledge of Islamic law. If there is any doubt about the facts down here let me know and I'll provide you with news reports ( as if it's needed) :

1) Shabaab have labeled the Somali government members as gaalo, gaalo-raac, dadka ka qaxay Afgooyana ku tilmaamay gaalo-raac.

If there is any doubt about the about this fact, let me know.

The reasoning is entirely up to them. It's not the issue . The act of labeling is . But if we assume that - as you say- " they must have reasons" then we then must conclude that they also are obliged to carry out the sentencing for the crime. The least punishment I know for this crime is exile, the usual is death - from what my sources tell me. If you wish to disprove the FACTS of this , please let me know. And let us try to be clear about the issues and not side-step them with issues that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

[Arabmann]

If there is any doubt about the about this fact, let me know.

I've doubt about your facts. You need to submit proof that Shabaab labeled the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar.

1) Shabaab is right , and since they are right the only logical conclussion is that everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed for leaving the religion.

Shabaab believe they are right, therefore must have gone for the "logical conclussion." In areas they captured, you need to submit proof that Shabaab executed everyone in the government and it's areas, at least in one incidence.

[Shaarib24]

If there is any doubt about the about this fact, let me know.

I've doubt about your facts. You need to submit proof that Shabaab labeled the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar.

Listen to this : http://radiomuqdisho.net/fuaad-shongole ... eysiinayo/

1) Shabaab is right , and since they are right the only logical conclussion is that everyone in the government and it's areas MUST be executed for leaving the religion.

Shabaab believe they are right, therefore must have gone for your "logical conclussion." In areas it captured, you need to submit proof that Shabaab executed everyone in the government and it's areas, at least in one incidence.

Shaamow was not enough ? The terror attack on 04.10.2011 with the students in Hargaha was not enough ?

http://www.aarannews.com/?p=27007
and the suice bombers audio : http://somaliswisstv.com/2011/10/05/dhe ... li-dheere/

Lol I demand documentation for you sanity . You youself have now TWICE made that fact a premiss. It's akin to asking for prove that the sky is (to the human eye) blue.

Now that I have submitted at least one link ( as if it was needed) , I urge you to submitt ONE link where ANY member of the Shabaab leadership says that they are fighting against a muslim government.

[AhlulbaytSoldier]

There are different category of Alshabab supporters:
1) those who support them for clan reason
2) those who support them for financial reason
3) those who believe in their ideology
4) those who just wants to be 'soldiers'.

What i dispise are the first group. For instance when shabab were in Xamar the first group was responsible for executions.



Blind takfiir/judgement is haram. Every takfiir/judgement should be backed with evidence.

[Shaarib24]

There are different category of Alshabab supporters:
1) those who support them for clan reason
2) those who support them for financial reason
3) those who believe in their ideology
4) those who just wants to be 'soldiers'.

What i dispise are the first group. For instance when shabab were in Xamar the first group was responsible for executions.



Blind takfiir/judgement is haram. Every takfiir/judgement should be backed with evidence.

I agree. I dislike Shabaab and it's supporters with calm passion. What I dislike most is that they come in forums and pretend to be all nice and all that we are having is difference of opinion when the opinions they hold are so profound as to go to the core of our belief. I can't see how one can make peace with people who call other somalis apostates. It irks me when they the profound logical conclussions of this action is swept under the rug by Shabaab supporters.

[Arabmann]

Listen to this : http://radiomuqdisho.net/fuaad-shongole ... eysiinayo/

Most of the members and visitors of this forum do not understand Somali. Shabaab declaring the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar would be major breaking news reported in English, Arabic and other languages. Moreover, technology that alters audio recording exists. For instance, the audio of the current video causing much uproar in the Muslim world was altered. Furthermore, Shongole isn't Godane, Roobow or Shabaab's spokesman, so an allegation as such requires proof from the leaders I mentioned.

Shaamow was not enough ? The terror attack on 04.10.2011 with the students in Hargaha was not enough ?

Most Somalis believe Shaamow was an inside job. Shabaab usually claim their works, but didn't claim Shaamow. Shabaab mostly target foreign bases for martyrdom operations, and usually claim their works. Most of the civilian bombings were inside jobs meant for eliminating certain government officials (perceived as threats) and tarnishing Shabaab's image. A few days ago, a high ranking Kenyan official accused the Somali government of inside job; proof that there are inside jobs.

You had your chance to get answers but blew it.

[Shaarib24]

Listen to this : http://radiomuqdisho.net/fuaad-shongole ... eysiinayo/

Most of the members and visitors of this forum do not understand Somali. Shabaab declaring the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar would be major breaking news reported in English, Arabic and other languages. Moreover, technology that alters audio recording exists. For instance, the audio of the current video causing much uproar in the Muslim world was altered. Furthermore, Shongole isn't Godane, Roobow or Shabaab's spokesman, so an allegation as such requires proof from the leaders I mentioned.

If you want to admit that you don't speak Somali, say so.

Second , this is what you wrote above :


Postby Arabman » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:03 am

Shaarib24 wrote:If there is any doubt about the about this fact, let me know.

I've doubt about your facts. You need to submit proof that Shabaab labeled the government, its supporters and the people who live in the areas as kufaar.

I've presented the evidence. Now you question it with no further evidence than your conspiracy theory. Shongole denying the statement would be one thing. Argument based on facts are required to be met with facts, not cooked up stuff.

Shaamow was not enough ? The terror attack on 04.10.2011 with the students in Hargaha was not enough ?

Most Somalis believe Shaamow was an inside job. Shabaab usually claim their works, but didn't claim Shaamow. Shabaab mostly target foreign bases for martyrdom operations, and usually claim their works. Most of the civilian bombings were inside jobs meant for eliminating certain government officials (perceived as threats) and tarnishing Shabaab's image. A few days ago, a high ranking Kenyan official accused the Somali government of inside job; proof that there are inside jobs.

Again, we have to distinguish the impossible from improbable . The kenyan foreign minister, as has been reported by many somali news websites had other motives than factual ones. ( Reported fact) Today he has denied ever making the claim. (fact) Use your brain and deduct.

Though it's amusing to try to discuss with someone who doesn't rely much on facts, at some point one must demand an end to the hot air. No discussion can be fruitful if the parties taking part are not beholden to an ultimate truth and provable facts. I cannot claim to posses a talent makes me able to disprove made-up stuff. I , like many others somalis live in the real world. Hopefully you'll soon join us. I'll see you when you get there.

You had your chance to get answers but blew it.

[Arabmann]

^^Your response is overlapped and total mess. I leave it as it is.