Which do you value higher?

[Octavius]

Justice or mercy? And why?

Such a thought provoking and perplexing question... I could not and still cannot answer this question.

Im leaning towards justice. People deserve justice. But they deserve mercy too... no? But if we have too much mercy and too little justice there will be chaos and anarchy.

[Basra-]

Sometimes Mercy is Justice, if the person feels contrition and guilty. The forgiving mercy extended to them will haunt then and touch them. Hopefully change them for the better.


But I believe in Justice more. But more like to be "just", with the proper review of the offense and proper trial. Islam makes it hard to try an offender injustice as it requires great evidence to put a person through the justice system.


In legal terms-- I prefer Mercy, as nothing like forgiving that touches the heart and changes a soul. Alaaah swt is most forgiving, therefore, in our creators likeness, we must be merciful as well.


However, in terms on dealing with life and people, I think being just to people is very fine. I think I am like that. Only a realist, with morals, who see clearly, without self delusion can be just. Now, u cannot be just if u r not merciful. I think they both go hand in hand. You do have to have a heart to be a good justice.

[Jeffo]

Mercy gets you killed.

Majority of people share the same view of what mercy is hence those who who act on mercy are easily read, manipulated and taken advantage of. Views of what is justice varies, check out Elliott Rodger lol. Yes, everyone deserves mercy but human nature is always progressive. How can you take as much as you can? That is by manipulating the weak.

Show mercy to your own and lay waste to your enemies.

[Octavius]

Basra ive made my mind up.

If we are talking about criminal legal system/proceedings then there should be no unconditional or capricious mercy. If mercy is to be given, it should be measured, regulated and provided for in a structured and accountable manner in the legal and procedural framework. Mercy should equate to no more than a consideration of mitigating circumstances recognised by law and the pursuance of procedural justice to the fullest extent possible. If it is duly recognised that a change is required to the provisions/mitigating circumstances recognised by law or to the procedural framework, any such change should be recognised and implemented as a change to the system (or part thereof) and be applied prospectively. That is justice; being fair, right and just. Mercy is just whimsical. Touch the heart with retribution and change the soul with deterrence.

But what do you say if the question is applied to matters partaining to personal life and interaction. Justice or mercy? Forgiveness or revenge?

[Basra-]

Did u copy & paste that from a legal constitution law site or something?


Octa--


I totally agree with the legal proceeding part. Mercy will be difficult to enforce, as it will look whimsical and arbitrary. Justice, however, is not whimsical. It is structured, and less hypothetical than mercy.


On personal life and interaction-- Justice is much better. If u r Just, u will not go wrong. You will have respect, and trust. If you forever merciful, you will be angelic, and Godly. We cannot aspire to that. I say, justice is best.

[Caesar]

Individuals can show mercy

but the state should show justice

Allah knows best though.

[GeoSeven]

Which virtue undermines the other?

[Reacher]

Which virtue undermines the other?

They are complementary. You can't be just if you have no mercy. An example would be when you have an affinity for people who are under served in some capacity, you are driven to find justice for them in whatever form that justice can be attained or achieved on their behalf. So, one can say your strong sense of justice in this case comes from your innate kindness or sympathy for others. The word justice might bring violence to mind, but in reality, punishment to an offending party is only one part of a whole. Simple example that doesn't involve in violence is the representation of people in an institution and get for them funding for their schools, good roads, decent health system etc. Why? because you care, and why do you care? you are kind, therefore, that feeling of kindness leads you to seek justice for people, for your community and non-community alike. That wealth is shared, citizens play a role in good governance, taking care of the poor etc. If it takes sometimes to be violent to attain justice, in the case of capital punishment, so be it. I would invade a country to help people who are abused and murdered on a daily basis for no fault of their own but being who they are ethnically for example. If I have the means to bring justice in that regard, I would do it and in that pursuit, I am kind to the victims but harsh on the abusers. Complementary?

GeoSeven, you are a smart dude bro. What do you think? I know you asked and reserved your response. Why not elaborate your thoughts. Wasalaam.

Hope I made some sense.

[Reacher]

i think i was off topic a little earlier having focused on the many meanings of justice and mercy. I will stand by the notion that both are complementary. A man said once "Mercy without justice is dissolution, and Justice without mercy begets cruelty". We need mercy in exacting justice. And we need justice to keep the peace and harmony between men. Can't have one without the other.

[YummyMummy]

Ever heard of the story of the assassin? Killed 99 people, visited a priest & asked if forgiveness was possible. Priest said NO! in shock. Killed priest - 100 deaths so far. Visited an imaam. Asked same Q. Imaam said Yes, but only if you leave your current climate and go to such-and-such a place. Halfway through his journey the assassin died. The angels of Heaven & those of Hell both descended & quarreled as to where his ultimate abode lies. Allah the Just said to the angels of Heaven to measure how far he was from his old home, and to those of Hell how far he was from his new destination as a reformed man. Meanwhile, Allah the Merciful contracted & pulled the Earth to make the distance towards the land of reformation shorter, and the distance away from the bad land further. Reformed assassin goes to Heaven.

The moral of the story & the answer to your story GeoSeven: Mercy trumps Justice. Allah says in the Qur'aan "wa raxmatii wasicat kulla shay' "

[GeoSeven]

Reacher, you made sense. I only asked the question to further the discussion. I suppose you can always compliment a virtue with another but if we were to forego either mercy or justice, I would forego mercy. I personally think Justice eclipses all other virtues. Justice is propriety, justice is correct and most importantly, justice is fair. Like you've said, virtues correlate but if there was a medium between virtues, I think it would be justice....!?!?

Yummy, can we compare the divine virtues of God to the near dispositions in emotive man, human virtues...what do you think?

[YummyMummy]

Geo, I would like to think that ultimately every human being has a scale to "evil" and consciousness. Even in prison, where all criminals are ultimately "bad" or "evil", those that suffer the worst are paedophiles/child molesters, rapists, women beaters/killers in that order. Clearly the prisoners passing judgement and punishing those deemed more evil are saying that the latter deserve the least or no mercy.

Conversely, if 2 people are up for the same fate, but maybe one deserves it more because of their circumstances/background? E.g. my school kids today, I was choosing which ones to take onto an exciting project. Justice = select based on highest grades. Mercy = select those most passionate/committed. I did a mixture of both. I was particularly angling against taking on a particular female student who shines when debating or presenting, but she doesn't have a cool & logical mind to do the project. But I chose her anyway, she's so bloody passionate! She didn't let me down yet; today's project, despite her group's mediocre design, she git them the best presentation & hence scored them 2nd place! The event would have honestly been completely different if it weren't for her.

[Octavius]

Ever heard of the story of the assassin? Killed 99 people, visited a priest & asked if forgiveness was possible. Priest said NO! in shock. Killed priest - 100 deaths so far. Visited an imaam. Asked same Q. Imaam said Yes, but only if you leave your current climate and go to such-and-such a place. Halfway through his journey the assassin died. The angels of Heaven & those of Hell both descended & quarreled as to where his ultimate abode lies. Allah the Just said to the angels of Heaven to measure how far he was from his old home, and to those of Hell how far he was from his new destination as a reformed man. Meanwhile, Allah the Merciful contracted & pulled the Earth to make the distance towards the land of reformation shorter, and the distance away from the bad land further. Reformed assassin goes to Heaven.

The moral of the story & the answer to your story GeoSeven: Mercy trumps Justice. Allah says in the Qur'aan "wa raxmatii wasicat kulla shay' "

What ayah/surah is that?

[jalaaludin5]

Its not like tossing a coin. Head or tails.

Justice and mercy are not mutually exclusive.

They one and the same for mercy is justice and vice versa.

[YummyMummy]

Ever heard of the story of the assassin? Killed 99 people, visited a priest & asked if forgiveness was possible. Priest said NO! in shock. Killed priest - 100 deaths so far. Visited an imaam. Asked same Q. Imaam said Yes, but only if you leave your current climate and go to such-and-such a place. Halfway through his journey the assassin died. The angels of Heaven & those of Hell both descended & quarreled as to where his ultimate abode lies. Allah the Just said to the angels of Heaven to measure how far he was from his old home, and to those of Hell how far he was from his new destination as a reformed man. Meanwhile, Allah the Merciful contracted & pulled the Earth to make the distance towards the land of reformation shorter, and the distance away from the bad land further. Reformed assassin goes to Heaven.

The moral of the story & the answer to your story GeoSeven: Mercy trumps Justice. Allah says in the Qur'aan "wa raxmatii wasicat kulla shay' "

What ayah/surah is that?

I'll have to dig it up walal:
Surah Acraaf, verse 156