Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

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Leftist
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Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Leftist »

sacrosanct. It is not up for debate.

It is sacrosanct.
Religion never was, and never should be, something so complicated that it takes decades of study and research to be able to answer one simple f-king question: Can a person believe whatever she wants to believe and enter & leave whatever religion she wants freely at will?

And the answer to that very simple question is Three letters/sadax xaraf:: Yes. Haa.

The “mainstream” understanding of Apostasy just like the “mainstream” understanding of slavery, over the past 1400 years has been horrifically misunderstood and is illegitimate, in toto. By that, I mean: putting someone to death because they choose to leave Islam, is fundamentally unIslamic, just as buying a slave-girl from a slave-market is fundamentally unIslamic, regardless of who practices it or said it’s ok. Regardless if they are Pious Predecessors or not. Both “apostasy = death” and “I finna get me slavegirl to have sex with” are as unIslamic as rape, murder, and theft. If you can execute someone because they choose to leave Islam, then, you should go ahead and also halal-ise rape, murder, and theft, because they are all on the same footing: illegitimate and heinous acts that have been deemed “halal” by a horrific misunderstanding and misinterpretation of Islam. The obvious solution, of course, is the blessed Reformation, but that’ll take us off-topic, so waa inoo iyo maalin kale doodaasi.

But for those of you who believe in the literalist manhaj/idealogy, let's just cut through the mealy-mouthed meandering and all the sophisticated nonsensical verbiage and tell you to accept one of two things:

- That you and yours(pious predecessors, sunni orthodoxy, Ulema papacy) are Thought Police Sanctioned by God who claim the right to police people’s beliefs, and when appropriate, murder them just because their “thoughts” and “words” were deemed to be politically incorrect and “incompatible”.

- That every single human being on Earth has the ABSOLUTE UNEQUIVOCAL UNQUESTIONABLE REVOCABLE right to believe whatever they want to believe, worship whatever they want to worship, however they want to worship.

Those are your two options.

Choose. Just like CaliQase and Mailman have made a clear choice and enthusiastically welcome the murder(by the state) of human beings that are found guilty of “thought crimes” and “blasphemy”, adigana choose-garay. Don’t hide behind “nuance” or “years and years of study” or “the only people who can make a apostasy capital punishment ruling are Grand Wizards Ulema like Gandalf the Gray and Dumbledore”.

We’re in 2015, brehs. If you want to remain captive to a UNISLAMIC idealogy(literalism) that was codified in the 8th, 9th, and 10th centuries by well-meaning men who were influenced by the prevailing racist & misogynistic Ay-Rab/Tur-kik/Per-shan culture of that era, then by all means, go ahead. But do not for one cabdi-bile minute think that the nonsensical bullshit you believe in is Islamic, because it’s absolutely not.

More importantly: the fact that we’re “debating” this simply shows how far we have fallen. From leading the world in science and naming two-thirds of the stars in the sky to actually holding a serious debate about whether you can kill someone because they changed their religion or whether you can buy another human being from the grocery store the same way you would buy xanjo from effin Tesco.

:snoop:

What the fuck are you gonna tell your grandchildren in 2050: “Awoowe, aahaay, waagi hore ee jaahiliyada iyo caqli-xumida na haysay ee ~2015, waxaan aaminsanaa adoonsiga inoo xalaal yahay, oo bani-aadam sooqa aan ka soo gadan-karo sida ari ama lax camal. Waxaan oo kale aaminsanaa qof deenta islaamka ka baxo in la dili-karo.”

If you are ignorant and mentally deficient enough to follow the unislamic teachings of dead men who lived centuries ago, centuries that were rife with racism and all sorts of ugliness, then please understand that you are held hostage by the forces of puritanical-literalism, and that time, and the rest of the human race(who are all going to hell, right?......right?), will march on and leave you behind to debate the following super-important matters:

- how many sex-slaves can a man own? Is there a limit?

- The superiory of Quraysh and Banu Hashim over non-Qurayshis and non-Hashemities

- Executing those who leave the deen: The best thing since canjeelo iyo beer? Or the bestest thing ever?

Stupidity boiled to an essence waaye sheekadu. The need for a Reformation of our understanding, interpretation, and implementation of Islam has never been more direly urgent.
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by 0sman »

As usual well put but unfortunately all of that will just fall on deaf ears coz 'this is not a fatwa from Saudi Arabia', brah.
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by SooMaal11 »

:up:
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by XimanJaale »

I like your informative threads. Quite refreshing though controversial, keep breaking the chain. :up:
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by GeoSeven »

Image
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by ZubeirAwal »

And say, "The Truth is from your Lord; so whoever decides, then let him believe, and whoever decides, then let him disbelieve." Surely We have readied for the unjust a Fire whose canopy encompasses them; and in case they call for succor, they will be succored with water like molten metal that will scald their faces. Miserable is the drink, and odious is it as a resting place!

18:29

Basically, in the Akhira lies the ultimate consequences for our choices made here in our brief lives, it's every man and woman's right to believe in whatever they want to believe in..
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Robotic »

Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

/End thread
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by GAMES »

Only in the west sxb, but certainly not in Arabaha or Somalia.
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Kareem99 »

Robotic wrote:Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

/End thread
^^ This right here.

To the OP: calm the fuck down and stop with the anger for a second. Go back to the f-king 60s you leftist hippy.

This forum waa forum dhaqaameed ah, discussing Somali language and culture (yes we Somalis are Muslim, but Islam is not unique to us). Why you want to discuss topics considered very minute by most citizens (Muslim or not), and are irrelevant today, is beyond me. 99% of Muslims DON'T EVEN HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS at home, you're splitting hairs you moron. How many Somalis on here ask their father over dinner "Hey dad, I'll grab a slave while I get the milk on my way home tomorrow." WTF?

Let people what they want to believe, whether it's your form of Islam, or Saudi Islam, or Judaism, or Paganism, and just shut the fuck up with this garbage. You can leave Islam tomorrow and you can rest assured no one wants to kill you, nor does anyone want you dead. Relax, stop believing in Fox News. I swear I wasn't even going to respond to this post, but I had to show the people how stupid you are under the guise of "progress and intelligence." In your effort to combat extreme forms of Islam, you have adopted their extreme "I'll shove my ideas down your throat" ways. :down:

Peace.
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Present »

Kareem99 wrote:
Robotic wrote:Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

/End thread
^^ This right here.

To the OP: calm the fuck down and stop with the anger for a second. Go back to the f-king 60s you leftist hippy.

This forum waa forum dhaqaameed ah, discussing Somali language and culture (yes we Somalis are Muslim, but Islam is not unique to us). Why you want to discuss topics considered very minute by most citizens (Muslim or not), and are irrelevant today, is beyond me. 99% of Muslims DON'T EVEN HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS at home, you're splitting hairs you moron. How many Somalis on here ask their father over dinner "Hey dad, I'll grab a slave while I get the milk on my way home tomorrow." WTF?

Let people what they want to believe, whether it's your form of Islam, or Saudi Islam, or Judaism, or Paganism, and just shut the fuck up with this garbage. You can leave Islam tomorrow and you can rest assured no one wants to kill you, nor does anyone want you dead. Relax, stop believing in Fox News. I swear I wasn't even going to respond to this post, but I had to show the people how stupid you are under the guise of "progress and intelligence." In your effort to combat extreme forms of Islam, you have adopted their extreme "I'll shove my ideas down your throat" ways. :down:

Peace.
+1 This minus the F-words. :up:

@OP, we admire your passion but you're preaching to the choir, walal
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Kareem99 »

@ Present: point taken. I took exception to the complete dismissal of centuries of scholarship. Yes, there were many mistakes made by the scholars (as in every religion), laakin using words like "papacy" to describe the richly preserved texts is both clueless and shameful. I am what most Somalis call "liberal" and my mother and sister are "conservative" (wear hijab and the whole bit). They are infinitely more educated than me, they are infinitely wiser than I am, and they are 10x the human being I'll ever be. They don't force me to believe option A) or option B) like the OP is forcing us. In fact, they don't force me to do ANYTHING. Yes we have differences, but they make ducaa for me (they tell this to my face lol), and when appropriate, we will have discussions. I refuse to categorize such beautiful people (they happen to be my family in this case, but I've met so many other similar people) as "backwards" and I refuse to trivialize their beliefs.

There are militantly minded Muslims/Christians who will demean your mental capacity and ridicule your values if you don't agree with them, I know that and I am not blind. The irony here is that the OP is displaying the same militant attitude, but with a different set of values. I'm not saying this is a discussion that shouldn't be had. I'm saying the OP should go and discuss this with the 0.01% of people who actually care about this (as opposed to the majority of us who simply have bigger fish to fry).
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Present »

Kareem, I agree with your sentiments. MashAllah to your mother and sister :up: Honestly, most Muslims are regular people who have zero interest in killing their neighbour who happened to have left the fold. They have education, jobs, safety and families to feed to worry about. There are extreme people in all groups--historically and present times-- completely getting rid of scholarship will take us no where near the essence of Islam. If anything, I think that we would be worse off.

*My 2 humble cents*
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by TheMailMan »

Leftist, no one is policing your thoughts. If you want to disbelieve in your Creator than by all means go and do as you wish. You will deal with the consequences in the Aakhirah when you meet your Lord.

What we do have a problem with, is having someone who was once a Muslim publicly reject his religion while living in an Islamic State. We should have no tolerance for such behavior and if someone genuinely disbelieves in Allah then he should do himself a favor and keep it to himself. Similarly, if a man has homosexual inclinations, then he should keep his homosexuality to himself and not act upon it. In Islamic jurisprudence, the Religion and the State are one and the same. The spiritual leader of the Muslim Ummah was often the political leader (ex. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali). And those who publicly reject Islam are guilty of a crime worse than treason.

Your problem is you bought the Western/Secular definition of religion. The Europeans separate Christianity from politics simply because Christianity is a false religion which is incapable of addressing the many complex issues which arise in a modern society. Islam isn't the same way. Islam is an all-encompassing and flexible political/economic/legal/ethical framework and you can't reduce our beautiful religion to a few anecdotes. It is a system handed down to us from our Creator.

You see a problem with executing apostates but don't see an issue with executing people guilty of treason. This shows your complete double standards. I'm a Somali, I didn't choose to be Somali but that's what God made me as. If I as a Somali betray my country and sell myself out to the Ethiopians or Americans, then I would be guilty of treason and most people would look at me as someone deserving of execution. But why is that? Since I didn't choose to be a Somali in the same way that "tmac" and "Abdi Johnson" didn't choose to be born Muslim, would that make a difference? Would a Court of Law really care? So according to your warped logic, it's okay to execute someone based on treason, yet you see it as problematic if an Islamic Government executes someone who publicly left the religion? What's with the double standard?

Again, I'm not here to police your thoughts and it's not like the Islamic Government is gonna barge into your house to check if you're praying your Salat. No, it doesn't work like that. You can go and do as you wish. But those who go the Ayaan Hirsi or Amal Farah route do indeed deserve execution, and I make no apologies in saying that. Their statements have been wrou
ght with outright lies and misrepresentations against our Deen. I've read Ayaan Hirsi's book and she has lied about religion over and over again.

The problem arises when you have weak-minded and ignorant Muslims who fall prey to the lies of Ayaan Hirsi and her supporters. That's the real issue. I'm a strong-minded person who's not afraid to challege anyone, and I can easily see through the lies peddled by the Anti-Islam crowd. But there are many Muslims, including Somalis, who are ignorant of their religion and have their Imaan destroyed by a well-spoken but manipulative Ex-Muslim. There are many examples of Muslims who have left Islam due to this, and who have effectively destroyed their Afterlife.

We all believe that selling heroin should be illegal as well as selling crack....due to the immense harm these substances can bring upon a person's life. In fact, most Somalis here would agree that selling heroin should carry the death penalty. Even though the heroin dealer technically didn't FORCE anyone to purchase his drug, he still deserves the death penalty because his potent drug can influence weak-minded people and potentially destroy their lives. So why can't we have the same attitude towards apostasy? Why can't we look after the interests of Muslims who are weak-minded and who can fall prey to the lies and deceit of the Ex-Muslim crowd?

I mean, if a heroin dealer can be executed for a drug that can destroy someone's life, then why can't an Ex-Muslim be executed for potentially destroying someone's Afterlife ? How many Muslims have fallen for the bullshit of Ayaan Hirsi and her crowd and subsequently left Islam as a result? And what do you think will happen to these apostates on Judgment Day?

We Muslims should be protective over our religion, as Islam is the vehicle that guarantees us a successful life as well as a successful Afterlife. The Islamic Government's primary job is to safeguard the well-being and Imaan of the Muslim population. I know that I as a Muslim man don't want my children or my siblings to fall prey to a manipulative and well-spoken Ex Muslim who could mislead my family and make them leave Islam. That in my opinion is WORSE than selling them heroin. Because even though heroin can destroy your life RIGHT NOW, apostasy can destroy your life AND YOUR AFTERLIFE.

I don't think people realize the seriousness of this crime, and the permanent consequences of this crime in the Afterlife. Don't fall for Leftist's faulty logic. He has no idea what he's talking about.

There's a reason why I firmly believe that apostates should be executed, and this is the reason.
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tmac
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by tmac »

Leftist,

Just come out as an Agnostic, brother.

TheMailMan,

I'm 100% against executing people guilty of treason. I'm against the death penalty, full stop.

I'm also pro gay marriage just like I'm pro polygamy. I'm consistent on this. You'll never see me be critical of polygamy. Consenting adults should do as they please. Keyword here is: Consent.
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Re: Let's get one thing straight: freedom of religion/belief is

Post by Bandit »

tmac wrote:Leftist,

Just come out as an Agnostic, brother.

TheMailMan,

I'm 100% against executing people guilty of treason. I'm against the death penalty, full stop.

I'm also pro gay marriage just like I'm pro polygamy. I'm consistent on this. You'll never see me be critical of polygamy. Consenting adults should do as they please. Keyword here is: Consent.
Are you also pro prostitution and drugs or does your hypocrite views not allow that :lol:
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