Pharoah's Baboons

[Grant]

Have you seen these?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 54547.html

http://www.shabait.com/about-eritrea/ar ... ea-part-ii

http://www.madote.com/2010/03/land-of-p ... itrea.html

The evidence is stacking up that the island city of Massawa was the capital of Punt. This means that the kingdom was probably the area that became Damot, where Ethiopia, Eritreya and the Sudan meet. This image of the village from Hatshepsut's temple complex shows houses on stilts, on an island with palms, surrounded by turtles and fish. It looks like the baboons have nailed it and "Puntland" needs to change it's name.

[AbdiWahab252]

Grant - Well well well, interesting research. What about the commonalities in the linguistic and cultural background between the Somali and Egyptians?

[Grant]

AW,

From what I can gather, E1b1b originated in the Horn. The related E1b (M139) [If I remember it right. I can get links if you are interested.] is Khoisan. The 1b group migrated to the western end of the Sahara to become Berber and then back to southern Egypt/Sudan as the Sahara dried out, to become Cushitic. With population pressure, the herding peoples moved south and east. Some Cushite groups crossed the southern Ethiopian highlands and others crossed on the plains to the south. The Samaales probably didn't become differentiated from the other groups until after this period. We know the Hawiyye clans came down the Shabelli, out of the southern Ogaden, reaching the Indian Ocean coast by about 1100 AD. Samaales reached the Red Sea coast in the first century AD but did not have the numbers to subdue the Yibir, Midgan, etc., until the time of Aw Barkhadle in the 12th-13th centuries. The sultanates only began about 800 years ago.

Several of the Egyptian dynasties came from "Libya", meaning the eastern end of the Sahara, as did many of the inhabitants of the Nile valley. The Cushites were just the southern end of this. The Semitic and Cushitic languages are related, as are the people. E1bib goes clear across North Africa and into the Mediterranean basin. At one point, Kush actually ruled Egypt.

Probably more recently than 5,000 years ago the Samaales and Egyptians were the same or closely related people. The whole Berber group is related. The Samaales just made it all the way back to the Horn, the probable point of origin of E1b1b. But they did it by a southern route, and not up or down the Red Sea.

[LiquidHYDROGEN]

I don't pretend to know where ancient Punt was (and to be honest, I don't particularly care) but their major export was sweet smelling unguents, frangraces and incense. Stuff that Somalia is famous for and has more of than eritrea.

[Grant]

LH,

If you read those links in the first post, a lot will become clear. Punt got it's myrrh from Arabia, had a local incense Somalia doesn't have. The Egyptians used a type of ebony that only grows in the Damot region, doesn't grow in Somalia. The fish depicted in Hatshepsut's wall carvings are from the Red Sea and do not extend into the Gulf of Aden or the Indian Ocean. The evidence goes on and on. Read the links.

The Pharoah's baboons were from Massawa, not Somalia.

[SahanGalbeed]

There are many "asiatic" looking saharan berbers . The fact that it has more to do with khoisan rather than the chinese { as the somali call the look } makes more sense

[Jabuutawi]

Grant, if you came up with these off tangential suppositions in a court of law, I, as a judge, would toss it out as flimsy evidence.

Only one of the two baboons was suitable for the research

Never mind about the tens of thousands of exotic animals shipped throughout the centuries from various locations to ancient Egypt. I would need more sample study in before I extrapolate with certainty the Land of Punt location is modern day Eritrea.

Land of Punt southern border could have very well extended to Djibouti/Saylac, perhaps even beyond.

Sampling of an animal's oxygen isotope is unreliable to the extent animals move around, migrate essentially, for extended periods of time from place to place.

Case in point: A small village called Shebelle (leopard in English) in Djibouti had quite a few of these big cats. In fact, there is a story of a 3rd great-grandfather attacked (no worries, he survived by using qolxad, a famous dagger ) by a leopard in Shebelle, Djibouti. Today no leopards exist in Djibouti. My point is animals migrate and not beholden to artificial human borders.

The fish depicted in Hatshepsut's wall carvings are from the Red Sea and do not extend into the Gulf of Aden or the Indian Ocean

What is the name of the species of fish that lives in the Red Sea but not Bab el Mandeb Strait?

Name change? Ludicrous. New England (USA) and New South Wales (Australia) ought to be changed to their original Native American and Aboriginal names, respectively.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

Our lands produce the most Uunsi ,just as LH has mentioned.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Okay but there also could've been another Kingdom or people that Sent Baboons from Eritrea / Ethiopia or traded with Egypt. Who is saying every Baboon sent to Egypt is from Somalia?

Second Point Egypt is on the Red Sea, so most likely the Fish you mentioned would be from the Red Sea closer to Egypt. We are on the Red Sea too on the Gulf of Aden.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp

[Grant]

Legendary,

The Periplus was written in the 1st to third centuries AD, at least 1,500 years after Hatshepsut's expedition, the very detailed records of which make no mention of such places. Note that Punt was also reached overland. Don't forget the ebony.
You can see one of the fish in the image of the village I posted. It's a weird-looking thing. You can see others and a better rendition here:

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/DeiralBahari.html

I am relying on the scientists for the distribution.

Prince,

The baboons in question are known to have come from Punt. The Bab el Mandeb is between Djibouti and Yemen, not far south of Massawa, so even the Somaliland coast is beyond the pale. I don't think you're reading the links.

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

Well Punt may have ruled over parts of the Ethiopian coast and sent them from there! Punt was a strong country that fought beside Egypt in an alliance, it's like Rome sending a baboon from Africa and today we say Rome couldn't have done that!

[GalliumerianSlayer]

Legendary,

The Periplus was written in the 1st to third centuries AD, at least 1,500 years after Hatshepsut's expedition, the very detailed records of which make no mention of such places. Note that Punt was also reached overland. Don't forget the ebony.
You can see one of the fish in the image of the village I posted. It's a weird-looking thing. You can see others and a better rendition here:

http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/DeiralBahari.html

I am relying on the scientists for the distribution.

Prince,

The baboons in question are known to have come from Punt. The Bab el Mandeb is between Djibouti and Yemen, not far south of Massawa, so even the Somaliland coast is beyond the pale. I don't think you're reading the links.

I posted the link regarding Periplus to show those Somalis who believed that life in the Somali lands that we inhabit now took place after the birth of Islam.

[Grant]

Well Punt may have ruled over parts of the Ethiopian coast and sent them from there! Punt was a strong country that fought beside Egypt in an alliance, it's like Rome sending a baboon from Africa and today we say Rome couldn't have done that!

I don't know about an alliance with Egypt, but Punt was in an alliance that fought against Egypt.

http://www.shabait.com/about-eritrea/ar ... ea-part-ii

"One of the most significant information that makes a very strong case that Punt was a kingdom neighboring upon Kush Kingdom (and one that disproves it being in Yemen or as distant as Somalia or Tanzania) is with the recent 2003 archeological discovery that shows Kush, along with Punt and other neighboring kingdoms joined in force to invade and successfully defeat the Ancient Egyptians and the tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC))

The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organizing a counter-attack.

The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: “Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. . .” It describes the decisive role played by “the might of the great one, Nekhbet”, the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as “strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire”, while the “chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame”. Tomb reveals Ancient Egypt’s humiliating secret

Professor Fattovich even argues that the ancient Ona Group-A sites of Eritrea (located near Asmara, the capital) may possibly be part of Punt or linked to it.

The potential importance of these findings went mostly unnoticed in the archaeological world until Rodolfo Fattovich drew attention to their significance for understanding early complex societies in the Horn. Calling these sites both the "Ona Culture" and "Ona Group-A," he argues for a possible connection between Egypt and the land of Punt, and identifies the Ona culture as either located within the land of punt or as possibly linked to Punt."

Check out the statue of Kushite king Tanwetamani, escavated at Kerma in the Sudan in 2003. Note that this discovery and conclusions preceeded the work on the baboons.

http://www.ancientsudan.org/index.html

[PrinceNugaalHawd]

I saw text somewhere I'll post if I find it.

But still punt was a warlike people who could've ruled these lands and sent baboons from there.