Ideal Somali Defense Structure

[HQ1969]

here's a hypothetical view of how somalia's military could drastically be improved. these points will be realistic (affordable and obtainable).

1. after the lifting of the arms embargo, the somali govt should seize all weapons that don't belong to the state (weapons belonging to the military, allied militias such as ahlu sunnah, etc.)

2. the govt should then procure g3 rifles from germany or a third country or fn fal's or even hk33's from germany. it's imperative that it doesn't allow these weapons to ever fall outside of the jurisdiction of the military. ideally, they would never be sold on the black market.



3. phase out the ak-47 to only be used for the police services and border police. after providing the army with either g3a3's or fn fal's, keep soviet/russian light and heavy machine guns such as the rpk, pkm and dshk.



4. for submachine guns, the ideal weapon would be the mp5 but if that's out of the budget for the defense ministry, the second best option is the beretta m12. standard sidearm for military and police should be either the beretta m9, m1911, or any standard nato pistol such as modern glock, hk, or fn pistol models.



5. procure cheap south african armored personnel carriers such as the casspir, reva, mamba and the marauder. also, with our close ties with the americans and the fight against extremists, use that as leverage to receive a few m1117 apc's. maybe even procure a dozen btr-80s. for tanks procure cheap russian tanks such as the t-62 and the t-72.



6. procure cheap utility helicopters such as the mil mi-17 for the air force and the army. somalia's not in the position of acquiring fighter jets and most likely won't be even after a decade.



7. the most reliable and affordable police vehicles would be toyotas, whether toyota trucks or even in the future toyota sedan police vehicles.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

You have yet to reconcile all of these war mongering clans that are simply anti-peace. Arms embargo is here to stay.

[HQ1969]

that's not a problem that we can't fix. somalis were united under Aabe Siyaad and they'll be united again Inshallah.

[GalliumerianSlayer]

that's not a problem that we can't fix. somalis were united under Aabe Siyaad and they'll be united again Inshallah.

That collapsed after the failure known as the 77 war, where he became ridiculously even more of a tyrant dictator.
Re-learn history.

[gurey25]

Pretty good I have nothing to criticise.

Fn fal and g3 are better rifles than the ak47, but they are not in production. You will be getting old stuff.
Go for the ak56.

The south African veld is just like Somali grasslands
Ratels, buffels and assorted south African wheeled apc and ifvs are ideal for Somalia.
The mobility and mine protection offers a wide range of tactical options.

You are also correct, helicopter are needed fighter bombers not so much. I would prefer propeller driven like super tucano.

In the horn an efficient artillery battery is worth more than an entire squadron of fighter-bombers.

You are also correct in limiting the number of tanks, they will not be that useful in our environment.
In the never ending cycle of defence versus offence
Currently the offensive is superior and atgms mean tanks cannot survive long without active protection.
Tanks are like a sledgehammer, a specific tool you might need one sonetimes.

Let's leave tanks and outdated tactical concepts to the Ethiopians and Kenyans.

[HQ1969]

Pretty good I have nothing to criticise.

Fn fal and g3 are better rifles than the ak47, but they are not in production. You will be getting old stuff.
Go for the ak56.

The south African veld is just like Somali grasslands
Ratels, buffels and assorted south African wheeled apc and ifvs are ideal for Somalia.
The mobility and mine protection offers a wide range of tactical options.

You are also correct, helicopter are needed fighter bombers not so much. I would prefer propeller driven like super tucano.

In the horn an efficient artillery battery is worth more than an entire squadron of fighter-bombers.

You are also correct in limiting the number of tanks, they will not be that useful in our environment.
In the never ending cycle of defence versus offence
Currently the offensive is superior and atgms mean tanks cannot survive long without active protection.
Tanks are like a sledgehammer, a specific tool you might need one sonetimes.

Let's leave tanks and outdated tactical concepts to the Ethiopians and Kenyans.

do you think it's possible for somalia/somaliland/puntland to get weapons from the u.s. under the guise of fighting extremists like iraq or is it too risky for even the americans?

i was reading the wikileaks u.s. kenyan weapon sales cable and they were saying that in the future kenya will be able to manufacture m-16a4/m-4's on their own and possibly sell to neighboring countries.

[gurey25]

are you crazy, any american weapons built designed after the 70's is completly unsuited for the third world.

What you can buy on the black market is more than enough to equip a relevant force.
just 10% of the money stolen by politicians in somalia and somaliland etc can transform the armed forces.

but weapons do not make an armed force.
Its training and dicipline and the usage of correct doctrine and the strategy and tactics derived from your doctrine.


weapons are nice and shiny toys but are the last thing you should be concerned about.


with the right doctrine a somali millitia with technicals can defeat another one just like it but 3 to 5 times the size.
but no one seems to be interested in this.
and all these foriegn countries providing training are only providing counter insurgency and police training.

nobody wants a real somali armed force.

[Adali]

Its funny you discussing military hardware, you do realise this stuff will be used to end Somali lives, when you own this stuff and it cost you alot of money you want to use it to justify the financial cost, it is very easy to be agitated and if a foreigner comes with a suit case of money and tells Warlord A to start an insurgency against a local administration they will do it, it doesn't even have to be against tribe B but just within the tribe, this is how easy it is to sow instability in a third world country, why invest in this ? I rather invest in things that makes us come out of desperation and poverty, money making projects, and education is the way forward.

[HQ1969]

are you crazy, any american weapons built designed after the 70's is completly unsuited for the third world.

What you can buy on the black market is more than enough to equip a relevant force.
just 10% of the money stolen by politicians in somalia and somaliland etc can transform the armed forces.

but weapons do not make an armed force.
Its training and dicipline and the usage of correct doctrine and the strategy and tactics derived from your doctrine.


weapons are nice and shiny toys but are the last thing you should be concerned about.


with the right doctrine a somali millitia with technicals can defeat another one just like it but 3 to 5 times the size.
but no one seems to be interested in this.
and all these foriegn countries providing training are only providing counter insurgency and police training.

nobody wants a real somali armed force.

but kenya is doing just fine in terms of procurement and ensuring every weapon is accounted for as well as training. they have a great relationship with the us and uk to receive training both in kenya and also at those respective countries.

it's all hypothetical so i know most of these proposals won't work for somalia. especially considering the clan animosity and how easily weapons will end up on the black market or siphoned off to their clans as was the case in every somali conflict.

somalis need to wake up, all of their neighbors are being supplied and trained by western nations while it remains in limbo with an arms embargo, constant terror attacks and a military and police force comprised of various clan militias.

kenya will wait it out when it comes to the maritime issue while selling somali charcoal and sugar in the meantime. smh somalia is cursed.

[HQ1969]

Its funny you discussing military hardware, you do realise this stuff will be used to end Somali lives, when you own this stuff and it cost you alot of money you want to use it to justify the financial cost, it is very easy to be agitated and if a foreigner comes with a suit case of money and tells Warlord A to start an insurgency against a local administration they will do it, it doesn't even have to be against tribe B but just within the tribe, this is how easy it is to sow instability in a third world country, why invest in this ? I rather invest in things that makes us come out of desperation and poverty, money making projects, and education is the way forward.

it's purely hypothetical and due to the somali people's lack of foresight, your concerns are justified.

personally, i'm in favor of grassroots programs in somalia and i'm of the belief that clan can be used in the form of friendly competition in terms of development. there's a big difference between qabiil and qabyaalad.

if somalis abandoned qabyaalad we would be able to move forward while acknowledging who we are as in the case of kenyans who have improved their country through reforms and grassroots programs.

[Adali]

Its funny you discussing military hardware, you do realise this stuff will be used to end Somali lives, when you own this stuff and it cost you alot of money you want to use it to justify the financial cost, it is very easy to be agitated and if a foreigner comes with a suit case of money and tells Warlord A to start an insurgency against a local administration they will do it, it doesn't even have to be against tribe B but just within the tribe, this is how easy it is to sow instability in a third world country, why invest in this ? I rather invest in things that makes us come out of desperation and poverty, money making projects, and education is the way forward.

it's purely hypothetical and due to the somali people's lack of foresight, your concerns are justified.

personally, i'm in favor of grassroots programs in somalia and i'm of the belief that clan can be used in the form of friendly competition in terms of development. there's a big difference between qabiil and qabyaalad.

if somalis abandoned qabyaalad we would be able to move forward while acknowledging who we are as in the case of kenyans who have improved their country through reforms and grassroots programs.

everyone knows qabyalad is bad, qabiil itself is toxic, of course back in the day there were tradition and strong laws elders that were not corrupt and respected somali/islamic tradition to prevent qabiil from getting out of hand, today that society is dead ! we need to move forward.

I agree we should start from the grassroots, and focus on development a small township at the time, this is difficult and counter productive if we stick to qabiil as if it will grant us jannah, to navigate ourselves out of this stagnant primitive mentality we need to careless about kinship and focus more on development, it is far better to invest in your neighbouring clan than to arm yourself to the teeth to protect yourselves from their poverty fuelled shenanigans, obviously there is a limit to charity and you can always make mutually beneficial agreement but everyone who is smart can understand this.

I personally look to mogadishu in the 70/80s as a perfect example of a progressive somali society in its baby stage, where the best and brightest build a somali dream, we need to strive higher and compete with the rest of the world as they will certainly not give us any favours, if you are aware even a little bit of international politics and economics you should realise huge mutlinationals do not care about your tiny clan, they only fear a strong united nation.

I am very open minded about kinship but at the end of the day, your qabiil is your community, but it is certainly not a holy entity that you should ride or die for, every qabiil has crooks and good guys in it, we just need intelligent leaders in every qabiil to use this primitive form of organizing people and turn us into a better society and form stronger ties that can protect us from real threats at the world stage.

[HQ1969]

Its funny you discussing military hardware, you do realise this stuff will be used to end Somali lives, when you own this stuff and it cost you alot of money you want to use it to justify the financial cost, it is very easy to be agitated and if a foreigner comes with a suit case of money and tells Warlord A to start an insurgency against a local administration they will do it, it doesn't even have to be against tribe B but just within the tribe, this is how easy it is to sow instability in a third world country, why invest in this ? I rather invest in things that makes us come out of desperation and poverty, money making projects, and education is the way forward.

it's purely hypothetical and due to the somali people's lack of foresight, your concerns are justified.

personally, i'm in favor of grassroots programs in somalia and i'm of the belief that clan can be used in the form of friendly competition in terms of development. there's a big difference between qabiil and qabyaalad.

if somalis abandoned qabyaalad we would be able to move forward while acknowledging who we are as in the case of kenyans who have improved their country through reforms and grassroots programs.

everyone knows qabyalad is bad, qabiil itself is toxic, of course back in the day there were tradition and strong laws elders that were not corrupt and respected somali/islamic tradition to prevent qabiil from getting out of hand, today that society is dead ! we need to move forward.

I agree we should start from the grassroots, and focus on development a small township at the time, this is difficult and counter productive if we stick to qabiil as if it will grant us jannah, to navigate ourselves out of this stagnant primitive mentality we need to careless about kinship and focus more on development, it is far better to invest in your neighbouring clan than to arm yourself to the teeth to protect yourselves from their poverty fuelled shenanigans, obviously there is a limit to charity and you can always make mutually beneficial agreement but everyone who is smart can understand this.

I personally look to mogadishu in the 70/80s as a perfect example of a progressive somali society in its baby stage, where the best and brightest build a somali dream, we need to strive higher and compete with the rest of the world as they will certainly not give us any favours, if you are aware even a little bit of international politics and economics you should realise huge mutlinationals do not care about your tiny clan, they only fear a strong united nation.

I am very open minded about kinship but at the end of the day, your qabiil is your community, but it is certainly not a holy entity that you should ride or die for, every qabiil has crooks and good guys in it, we just need intelligent leaders in every qabiil to use this primitive form of organizing people and turn us into a better society and form stronger ties that can protect us from real threats at the world stage.

i completely agree with you.

can you believe in this day and age somalia still doesn't have sort of rail transport?

but what are your conclusions for a somali armed force? surely, we need a strong military with the necessary training and equipment. or are you in support of balkanization?

[PanSomaliNationalist]

I say Somalia invests in drones and bomb the hell outta al shabaab strongholds

[gurey25]

I say Somalia invests in drones and bomb the hell outta al shabaab strongholds

You want Alshabab dead?
Pay your soldiers, stop stealing their pay.
Supply them with food, fuel and ammo.

It's that simple.
If you can so that you can defeat Alshabab.

[Adali]

it's purely hypothetical and due to the somali people's lack of foresight, your concerns are justified.

personally, i'm in favor of grassroots programs in somalia and i'm of the belief that clan can be used in the form of friendly competition in terms of development. there's a big difference between qabiil and qabyaalad.

if somalis abandoned qabyaalad we would be able to move forward while acknowledging who we are as in the case of kenyans who have improved their country through reforms and grassroots programs.

everyone knows qabyalad is bad, qabiil itself is toxic, of course back in the day there were tradition and strong laws elders that were not corrupt and respected somali/islamic tradition to prevent qabiil from getting out of hand, today that society is dead ! we need to move forward.

I agree we should start from the grassroots, and focus on development a small township at the time, this is difficult and counter productive if we stick to qabiil as if it will grant us jannah, to navigate ourselves out of this stagnant primitive mentality we need to careless about kinship and focus more on development, it is far better to invest in your neighbouring clan than to arm yourself to the teeth to protect yourselves from their poverty fuelled shenanigans, obviously there is a limit to charity and you can always make mutually beneficial agreement but everyone who is smart can understand this.

I personally look to mogadishu in the 70/80s as a perfect example of a progressive somali society in its baby stage, where the best and brightest build a somali dream, we need to strive higher and compete with the rest of the world as they will certainly not give us any favours, if you are aware even a little bit of international politics and economics you should realise huge mutlinationals do not care about your tiny clan, they only fear a strong united nation.

I am very open minded about kinship but at the end of the day, your qabiil is your community, but it is certainly not a holy entity that you should ride or die for, every qabiil has crooks and good guys in it, we just need intelligent leaders in every qabiil to use this primitive form of organizing people and turn us into a better society and form stronger ties that can protect us from real threats at the world stage.

i completely agree with you.

can you believe in this day and age somalia still doesn't have sort of rail transport?

but what are your conclusions for a somali armed force? surely, we need a strong military with the necessary training and equipment. or are you in support of balkanization?

well brute force and weapons won't prevent that from happening, I personally believe that will only catalyse the process of balkanization. Don't take my word for it, I am more of a pacifist but perhaps you have a different view we can discuss. I do however believe strategic and advanced political manoeuvring will prevent balkanization, development and prosperity will give people something that they are not willing to lose by listening to rambling zealot funded by foreigners. Weapons main purpose is killing, its second purpose is deterrent, but it is counter productive to rely completely on weapons to prevent its primary functions, my main problem with weapons is that it leads to unnecessary and expensive arm race and doesn't stop anything really.

obviously you need some form of military, but it is very stupid to waste alot of resources on them unless you are going to be using them and become a dictator which didn't work for us the last time.

I think in the end those Somalis who refuse to reconcile and compromise will only have themselves to fail for their short comings, because they will be left behind, we can always block them off and send them on a path void of freedom and reliance on external domination. The last thing I want is to murder fellow Somalis, you never know if 10 years down the line their population reforms, or even 2 generations down the line.

One thing I do however know is that if Somalia becomes prosperous, Educated/skilled Somalis around the globe will flock to it, and even those in NFD, Djibouti, Ogaden, diaspora will not hesitate due to ideological, national and tribal lines to come and take their piece of the pie and in return add to the pool of success.