Just out of curiosity, when did ISAAQ come about as a Clan.

[DayrBare]

I recently, came across an article discussing Somali tribes and when each tribe cropped up in the Somali peninsula. The article alluded that ISAAQ came about fifteen to sixteen centuries. This didn’t make sense to me for the simple reason that when the ISAAQ in the coastal cities were signing treaties with the British in eighteen centuries, ISAAQ were already in their 10 to 15 generations from Sheekh ISAAQ.

Anyways, the article got me interested, started to retrace my genealogy (Abtirsiin), shockingly, calculating all the age gap of my forefathers (assuming each having his son or sons between 30 and 40, as earlier generations would marry in their mid-thirties due to marriage being difficult, costly and would take most of if not all one’s whole camel possessions), AYUUB SHEEKH ISXAAQ must have lived in the late fifteen to early sixteen century, this goes same for all other sub clan of ISAAQ originators.

Then I wonder, ISAAQ can’t be this young, so if we rule out the possibility of ISAAQ being Arab and say ISAAQ branched off from DIR then the DIR himself hadn’t been around that long as he would only be couple generations older than ISAAQ. Even the Samaale character wouldn’t be that old as he only precedes the DIR couple generations himself.

This is a dilemma for me because on the one hand, I don’t believe we descended from an Arab guy who appeared out of thin air in the fourteen centuries and on the other hand we can’t claim being part of DIR as DIR is the alleged original people in this part of the world yet ISAAQ not being that old.

The question is when did ISAAQ come to be? ISAAQ was never mentioned in The Conquest of Abyssinia (Futuh Al-Habasha), only the Habar-Magaadle was mentioned. May be when those wars ended, the ISAAQ was created by Habar-magaadle and others (Habar-habuusho).
Anybody knowledgeable on this subject who would care to share anything with us. Thanks guys

[theyuusuf143]

the existence of 'major ' clans are based on myths and reality. Keep in mind the Arabs brought clan system in our land not just the religion. One thing is for sure there are no Arab sheikhs who fathered many somalis , it's the opposite . May be the character sheikh isaaq established his own religious group 'xer' and that's how we became REER SHEEKH ISAXAAQ , But the majority of peaple of reer sheekh isaxaaq are not arabs . The character Dir is also a myth based on facts and fictions , but t there is no doubt Dir and isaaq clans are the same thing even daaroods and Dir are are the same peaple That's why we are Somalis , and the closest kin to somalis are not arabs but the Oromos. Many somalis were oromos originally and many somalis became oromos.

[original dervish]

Very few people believe the Arab progenitor myth....
Khalid is a firm proponent of the Arab origin story.

[Khalid Ali]

The story of sheikh isxaaq isxaaq his 8 son's in Africa does not change the same way the sira nabaawi of tabari and ibn ishaaq cannot be changed you can't change ur ancesty even after 1000 years you can't change the story of the beloved sheikh

[DayrBare]

the existence of 'major ' clans are based on myths and reality. Keep in mind the Arabs brought clan system in our land not just the religion. One thing is for sure there are no Arab sheikhs who fathered many somalis , it's the opposite . May be the character sheikh isaaq established his own religious group 'xer' and that's how we became REER SHEEKH ISAXAAQ , But the majority of peaple of reer sheekh isaxaaq are not arabs . The character Dir is also a myth based on facts and fictions , but t there is no doubt Dir and isaaq clans are the same thing even daaroods and Dir are are the same peaple That's why we are Somalis , and the closest kin to somalis are not arabs but the Oromos. Many somalis were oromos originally and many somalis became oromos.

The eight sons of Sheekh Isxaaq could have been his original eight acolytes and their progenies is what became us today. Isxaaq being Arab sound more made up story than what we are led to believed.

[DayrBare]

The story of sheikh isxaaq isxaaq his 8 son's in Africa does not change the same way the sira nabaawi of tabari and ibn ishaaq cannot be changed you can't change ur ancesty even after 1000 years you can't change the story of the beloved sheikh

I got to hand it to whoever came up with the idea us being originated from a lonely Arab guy who happened to appeared out of nowhere in the Horn fathered us, perfect marketing because it worked out perfect since we believe are Arabs.

[kanadiid90]

how many do you count to Sh Isxaaq?

[SultanOrder]

A generation is 20 to 30 years.

[DayrBare]

how many do you count to Sh Isxaaq?

15

[Khalid Ali]

It's not a made up story why would sheikh isxaaq lie about his ancestry his history to his children have u ever read the manuscript of sheikh isxaaq we are not Arabs we are Somali but we have an iraqi great grandfathr.

[X.Playa]

I recently, came across an article discussing Somali tribes and when each tribe cropped up in the Somali peninsula. The article alluded that ISAAQ came about fifteen to sixteen centuries. This didn’t make sense to me for the simple reason that when the ISAAQ in the coastal cities were signing treaties with the British in eighteen centuries, ISAAQ were already in their 10 to 15 generations from Sheekh ISAAQ.

Anyways, the article got me interested, started to retrace my genealogy (Abtirsiin), shockingly, calculating all the age gap of my forefathers (assuming each having his son or sons between 30 and 40, as earlier generations would marry in their mid-thirties due to marriage being difficult, costly and would take most of if not all one’s whole camel possessions), AYUUB SHEEKH ISXAAQ must have lived in the late fifteen to early sixteen century, this goes same for all other sub clan of ISAAQ originators.

Then I wonder, ISAAQ can’t be this young, so if we rule out the possibility of ISAAQ being Arab and say ISAAQ branched off from DIR then the DIR himself hadn’t been around that long as he would only be couple generations older than ISAAQ. Even the Samaale character wouldn’t be that old as he only precedes the DIR couple generations himself.

This is a dilemma for me because on the one hand, I don’t believe we descended from an Arab guy who appeared out of thin air in the fourteen centuries and on the other hand we can’t claim being part of DIR as DIR is the alleged original people in this part of the world yet ISAAQ not being that old.

The question is when did ISAAQ come to be? ISAAQ was never mentioned in The Conquest of Abyssinia (Futuh Al-Habasha), only the Habar-Magaadle was mentioned. May be when those wars ended, the ISAAQ was created by Habar-magaadle and others (Habar-habuusho).
Anybody knowledgeable on this subject who would care to share anything with us. Thanks guys

Your question simply can be summarized into " was sheekh Isxaaq a historical personality"? Meaning did he exist, and the question to that is simply yes. We have enough of first hand witnesses visiting Maydh encountering sheekh Isxaaq there in the 1300s. At least 3 Arab travels left behind a written account of meeting sheekh Isxaaq.

Now one mistake Somalis commit regarding dates , is when they say the 14 or 15 century they mean the 1400s and the 1500s which is wrong when you say the 14 century in English it means the period from 1300-1400 same for the 15 century meaning 1400-1500.

Now the average generation is 3 generation in a century or maximum 4 in a century. Taking the average in your case 15 generation to Ayuub multiplied by 33 years that will give you an approximate of 500 years putting Ayuub around early 1500s . That's the years of Futuux Al Xabasha so it's pretty much accurate. That doesn't mean Ayuub lived at that time it's just an approximate using your 15 generation. Most Isaaq today are at least 17 generation to Isaaq putting the 8 sons of Sheek Isxaaq in the 1400s, which is plausible since Sheek Isxaaq time was between 1300-1400.

The rest of the mumbo jumbo dir ibnu rag ibnu bnu zag ibnu Ram is pure gibbirish invented recently.

[SultanOrder]

So xplaya, Isaaq could have been a real person, but is the progenitor of the Isaaq clan?

[theyuusuf143]

So xplaya, Isaaq could have been a real person, but is the progenitor of the Isaaq clan?

I doubt. That's why I took the example of " xer" not all xer members are biological brothers they are just spritual brothers and that can evolve into cult or clan. As we have seen in gaalkacyo (xerta sheikh cabdi weli who is killed by alshabab recently). If sheikh isaaq was real carab man and he fathered all isaaqs then why isaaqs clan members have the same DNA markers as other Somalis ?

The isaaqs or daarods have no evidence that they are different from other Somalis who have nothing to do with the Arabian peninsula. Their hashimite/ashraaf myth is bullshit . they just invented fake abtirsi out of the blue just because they are sufi shafi,is who are extremely in love (axbaab) with with mohamed csws and his offspring. These kind of groups exist almost every Muslim country especially in Shia majority or shafaci countries like us .

[Sharmarke91]

I recently, came across an article discussing Somali tribes and when each tribe cropped up in the Somali peninsula. The article alluded that ISAAQ came about fifteen to sixteen centuries. This didn’t make sense to me for the simple reason that when the ISAAQ in the coastal cities were signing treaties with the British in eighteen centuries, ISAAQ were already in their 10 to 15 generations from Sheekh ISAAQ.

Anyways, the article got me interested, started to retrace my genealogy (Abtirsiin), shockingly, calculating all the age gap of my forefathers (assuming each having his son or sons between 30 and 40, as earlier generations would marry in their mid-thirties due to marriage being difficult, costly and would take most of if not all one’s whole camel possessions), AYUUB SHEEKH ISXAAQ must have lived in the late fifteen to early sixteen century, this goes same for all other sub clan of ISAAQ originators.

Then I wonder, ISAAQ can’t be this young, so if we rule out the possibility of ISAAQ being Arab and say ISAAQ branched off from DIR then the DIR himself hadn’t been around that long as he would only be couple generations older than ISAAQ. Even the Samaale character wouldn’t be that old as he only precedes the DIR couple generations himself.

This is a dilemma for me because on the one hand, I don’t believe we descended from an Arab guy who appeared out of thin air in the fourteen centuries and on the other hand we can’t claim being part of DIR as DIR is the alleged original people in this part of the world yet ISAAQ not being that old.

The question is when did ISAAQ come to be? ISAAQ was never mentioned in The Conquest of Abyssinia (Futuh Al-Habasha), only the Habar-Magaadle was mentioned. May be when those wars ended, the ISAAQ was created by Habar-magaadle and others (Habar-habuusho).
Anybody knowledgeable on this subject who would care to share anything with us. Thanks guys

You take this too seriously man.

The fact is ALL somali clans weather Darod, Hawiye, Dir or Isaaq are just people that have come together and formed alliances which have evolved over centuries, resulting in these modern clans. This tribal tradition came to us from Arabia due to Islam.

Nonetheless, the Hawiye and Dir do not claim they actually ALL descend from the same ancestor it just the Isaaq and Darod that claim they all descended from one ancestor. For example, the Hawadle and other major Hawiye clans are not actually Hawiye.

I think most Somalis are only genuinely related on or around the 7th generation. Anything above that is bullshit.

[xisaabiye1]

I recently, came across an article discussing Somali tribes and when each tribe cropped up in the Somali peninsula. The article alluded that ISAAQ came about fifteen to sixteen centuries. This didn’t make sense to me for the simple reason that when the ISAAQ in the coastal cities were signing treaties with the British in eighteen centuries, ISAAQ were already in their 10 to 15 generations from Sheekh ISAAQ.

Anyways, the article got me interested, started to retrace my genealogy (Abtirsiin), shockingly, calculating all the age gap of my forefathers (assuming each having his son or sons between 30 and 40, as earlier generations would marry in their mid-thirties due to marriage being difficult, costly and would take most of if not all one’s whole camel possessions), AYUUB SHEEKH ISXAAQ must have lived in the late fifteen to early sixteen century, this goes same for all other sub clan of ISAAQ originators.

Then I wonder, ISAAQ can’t be this young, so if we rule out the possibility of ISAAQ being Arab and say ISAAQ branched off from DIR then the DIR himself hadn’t been around that long as he would only be couple generations older than ISAAQ. Even the Samaale character wouldn’t be that old as he only precedes the DIR couple generations himself.

This is a dilemma for me because on the one hand, I don’t believe we descended from an Arab guy who appeared out of thin air in the fourteen centuries and on the other hand we can’t claim being part of DIR as DIR is the alleged original people in this part of the world yet ISAAQ not being that old.

The question is when did ISAAQ come to be? ISAAQ was never mentioned in The Conquest of Abyssinia (Futuh Al-Habasha), only the Habar-Magaadle was mentioned. May be when those wars ended, the ISAAQ was created by Habar-magaadle and others (Habar-habuusho).
Anybody knowledgeable on this subject who would care to share anything with us. Thanks guys

You take this too seriously man.

The fact is ALL somali clans weather Darod, Hawiye, Dir or Isaaq are just people that have come together and formed alliances which have evolved over centuries, resulting in these modern clans. This tribal tradition came to us from Arabia due to Islam.

Nonetheless, the Hawiye and Dir do not claim they actually ALL descend from the same ancestor it just the Isaaq and Darod that claim they all descended from one ancestor. For example, the Hawadle and other major Hawiye clans are not actually Hawiye.

I think most Somalis are only genuinely related on or around the 7th generation. Anything above that is bullshit.

So xplaya, Isaaq could have been a real person, but is the progenitor of the Isaaq clan?

I doubt. That's why I took the example of " xer" not all xer members are biological brothers they are just spritual brothers and that can evolve into cult or clan. As we have seen in gaalkacyo (xerta sheikh cabdi weli who is killed by alshabab recently). If sheikh isaaq was real carab man and he fathered all isaaqs then why isaaqs clan members have the same DNA markers as other Somalis ?

The isaaqs or daarods have no evidence that they are different from other Somalis who have nothing to do with the Arabian peninsula. Their hashimite/ashraaf myth is bullshit . they just invented fake abtirsi out of the blue just because they are sufi shafi,is who are extremely in love (axbaab) with with mohamed csws and his offspring. These kind of groups exist almost every Muslim country especially in Shia majority or shafaci countries like us .

It's interestin dat not a single person hu evr argued against the sheekh Isaaq story can bring any historical texts to challenge it or debunk it. Instead it's out of pure hatred for arabs or a false pride about being unique that makes you deny a historical facts. Cut the emotional bullshit

We have first hand sources of people who accompanied the sheekh, and also wrote about his life marriage and children. These manuscripts remain until today and agree with secondary sources and Somali tradition. To add to that, Islam whether Shia or Sunni(sufi included) are completely against taking false fathers. One of the founding 5 principles in shariah is preservation of lineages

It was narrated from Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Any man who knowingly claims to belong to someone other than his father has committed an act of kufr. Anyone who claims to belong to a people when he has no lineage among them, let him take his place in Hell.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3317) and Muslim (61).