Nomand, Voltage et al regarding Kosovo

[BigBreak]

Why does Somalia recognise the independence of Kosovo yet hypocritically reject the independence of her neighbour Somaliland. In recent times Serbia has apparently succeeded in persuading some countries to withdraw the recognition of Serbia's breakaway province Kosovo as an independent country. Would you guys and anyone else here on Snet like Somalia to no longer recognise Kosovo as a country but instead an integral part of Serbia

https://www.euractiv.com/section/enlarg ... rbia-says/

[nine]

Imagine comparing Muslim vs Christian + Albnian vs Serb with Somali xoolo politics. Starting to think 68 is real.

[BigBreak]

Nine why focus on identity, we are talking about statehood and diplomatic recognition

[Nomand]

Bigbreak,

I can answer your question with two simple points

1) Somalia's donor countries recognize Kosovo this both western and Arab league countries
2) Kosovo has
2.a) different language compared to Serbia
2.b) Kosovo has a different religion compared to Serbia. 95% percent of Kosovo is Muslim.

while Somaliland is basically just Isaq.

[BigBreak]

Nomand

Serbia is not going to stop claiming Kosovo anytime soon and they are working hard to reduce the number of countries that recognise Kosovo as a country. Given the hypocrisy of Somalia recognising Kosovo's independence but rejecting our independence don't be surprised that Serbia will recognise Somaliland as a separate country at some stage unless you guys start to reverse gear and instead recognise Kosovo as part of Serbia.

Talk about ethnicity, language, religion etc. doesn't ultimately matter when deciding to recognise or not a territory as independent

[Voltage]

Big Break, my position on self-determination is well known.

1. I am not against Somaliland self-determination.

2. For years, I have been supportive of Somaliland's self-dtermination as a principal.

3. My support for that self-determination includes the right of communities in Somaliland itself who would like to stay part of Somalia. (lExmp: Buuhoodle and Badhan which are right now functioning autonomously of Somaliland)

[Voltage]

Almost a year ago, I expressed the process with which this will most likely be settled.

1. Please note my strong support for Somaliland's self-determination including Independence.

2. Please note my use of a term like "deference", i.e. "defer to people in Somaliland on their choice" is a display of emotional recognition/empathy that Somalia has no role in this decision for the people of Somaliland.

3. Please finally note that my support for and empathetic recognition of the right of self-determination for the people of Somaliland includes ALL of the territory where diversity of political expression exists including communities that are pro-Somalia.

Politics and historical debates and that aside, Somalia should be prepared to honor the right to self-determination of Somalilanders.

I am sure Somalia will not let it go easily, but we must be prepared to accommodate that desire. It's simple as that.

However, as one of the few people from Somalia who is willing to defer completely to Somalilanders about the final outcome of our relationship, I also feel (and also know in the difficult negotiations that would finalize such a break up), the subject of SSC (not the whole regions but let's be real Dhulbahante and Warsangeli lands) will be bitterly contested and I do not foresee an eventuality where Somalia will compromise on Somaliland's right to self-determination while allowing pro-Somalia communities within it be muzzled.

It's 2020 where even Europe is apologizing for NEO-COLONIALISM let alone colonialism.

It would be a non-starter in my estimation for Somaliland to expect to break away with the old colonial border REVICTIMIZE communities who originally fought colonialism by holding them to that legacy.

In this juncture where negotiations for final settlement are not even being acknowledged and the issue is still unaddressed between Somalia and Somaliland; this is THE POINT BEFORE STEP 1.

Both camps are exceptionally hardcore and extreme in their positions but in a final negotiation, I definitely foresee the POSSIBILITY OF THREE (3) internationally observed referendumS carried out by a mutually agreed neutral partner before legal independence;

1.Referendum for Somaliland as a whole (if independence fails, it ends here) asking DO YOU WANT INDEPENDENCE

2. If Somaliland votes for referendum as a whole but SSC/Awdal communities return close vote or majority no, I forsee a 2nd targeted referendum for those groups asking DO YOU WANT UNITY

3. If agreement is reached at this point about independence (either somaliland goes as one or compromise is reached) then it is possible that Somalia will need a referendum to accept their government's decision----I say possible as I am entirely unsure about this...depends on how beholden gov is to people by then)

Obviously all Somalia nationalists are extreme now and all Somaliland nationalists are extreme yes, but when REAL final negotiations ever begin---not these fake talks going on for 5 years on and off about maalayacni----I predict hard compromises will have to be reached.

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewto ... 9#p4970880

[Khalid Ali]

Religion should not be used against Somaliland. This pointless. There are over 50 Muslim countries. Just because people share the same faith doesn't mean they should have the same country government.

[BigBreak]

Voltage I am sure your support for self determination is genuine and honorable I'll give you that but why should Somaliland have its territorial integrity violated as a "price" to remain independent and have our independence recognised by every other country including Somalia. Isn't it the case every country in Africa has its borders defined by their former colonisers so why should SL be different? Even Ethiopia by default has colonial made borders even though they are the only African country to have never been colonised

My compromise to Landers in the east that are Harti is to propose that while SL remains independent and has the same borders as the former British Protectorate, I propose the 3 Somali majority countries (Somalia, SL and Djibouti) completely open our borders towards each other's citizens and together we pool our sovereignty each so as to create a de facto loose confederation modelled on the European Union

[paperino]

Religion should not be used against Somaliland. This pointless. There are over 50 Muslim countries. Just because people share the same faith doesn't mean they should have the same country government.

Issue with SL is, its people have the exact dna as koonfurians. There's no difference between reer Waqooyi, reer Bari and other reers in Somalia. Therefore, no legitimate reason exists for SL's independence.

[Voltage]

Voltage I am sure your support for self determination is genuine and honorable I'll give you that but why should Somaliland have its territorial integrity violated as a "price" to remain independent and have our independence recognised by every other country including Somalia. Isn't it the case every country in Africa has its borders defined by their former colonisers so why should SL be different? Even Ethiopia by default has colonial made borders even though they are the only African country to have never been colonised

My compromise to Landers in the east that are Harti is to propose that while SL remains independent and has the same borders as the former British Protectorate, I propose the 3 Somali majority countries (Somalia, SL and Djibouti) completely open our borders towards each other's citizens and together we pool our sovereignty each so as to create a de facto loose confederation modelled on the European Union

If that's the case, why haven't you already received recognition of your independence by "every other country" regardless of Somalia?

I mean this is the paradox with Somaliland hardliners.

1.YOU are already "considered" part of Somalia's "territorial integrity."
2. YOU are the one "violating" Somalia's "territori integrity."
3. YOU are the one whose " independence" forces a price out of Somalia's " territorial integrity."

All because you desire self-determination. The paradox is before you have even realized the goal, the world you have planned to create is OPPRESSIVE.

It is a paradox and an IRONY.

Buuhoodle functions independently/autonomously of Somaliland right this second.

But let's get to a larger point:

It is 2021; at some point rational minds will need to exercise their faculties and question what they think is "Truth."

1. Somaliland declared independence in 1991.
2. It js 2021 today.
3. Through Somalia's civil war, factionalism, isolation, terrorism, piracy, etc---no one recognized you.

The UN went from giving you "dual track" only to take even that back.

You want to know why?

It is so simple, I won't even highlight the reason.

You. Have. No. Legal. Basis. And. Even. More. Damningly. You. Can't. Feed. Yourself.

Is that clear?

That's literally the beginning, middle, and closing on the lie you have been led to believe for 30 years.

1. There is nothing legally binding, guiding, or backing the statement about being a "colony" and have a "case" for statehood.

2. It is actually the I. N. V. E. R. S. E. There is " encouragement" from OAU/AU to respect "final settlement", i. e. not attempt to seize, borders at the time of independence of a state.

3. Furthermore it is not part of a legal architecture, it is not binding and can't be argued for a case like recognition, it is a guiding "spirit"

You see this entire principle was never about ALLOWING like for "Somaliland;" it was always about PREVENTING things like "Ogaden War."

Once you get past that gross misunderstanding, you realize exactly flimsy your entire case was all along as shown by 0 recognition thus far

1.You don't have a religious, ethnic, or cultural case.
2.You were never seized but voluntarily joined in an act of union.
3. You are not self-sufficient nor even unified entirely on this matter.

And lastly, there is precedent everywhere that establishes the right of Buuhoodle's self-determination if you shall receive.

India and Pakistan united under British India, Cambodia and Vietnam united under French Indochina, etc are just some colonies that separated.

It is sort of ironic that your biggest argument is not even legally binding amd was intended for the inverse of your situation whereas Buuhoodle within Somaliland context actually has multiple legal precedents to lean on.

Now again, I am not like you or Somalia "nationalists" types; I do not have a rigid ideology on this and I am very accepting of the principle of Somaliland's right to self-determination.

All of Somaliland in whatever choice(s) they make.

[Phinks]

Voltage I am sure your support for self determination is genuine and honorable I'll give you that but why should Somaliland have its territorial integrity violated as a "price" to remain independent and have our independence recognised by every other country including Somalia. Isn't it the case every country in Africa has its borders defined by their former colonisers so why should SL be different? Even Ethiopia by default has colonial made borders even though they are the only African country to have never been colonised

My compromise to Landers in the east that are Harti is to propose that while SL remains independent and has the same borders as the former British Protectorate, I propose the 3 Somali majority countries (Somalia, SL and Djibouti) completely open our borders towards each other's citizens and together we pool our sovereignty each so as to create a de facto loose confederation modelled on the European Union

If that's the case, why haven't you already received recognition of your independence by "every other country" regardless of Somalia?

I mean this is the paradox with Somaliland hardliners.

1.YOU are already "considered" part of Somalia's "territorial integrity."
2. YOU are the one "violating" Somalia's "territori integrity."
3. YOU are the one whose " independence" forces a price out of Somalia's " territorial integrity."

All because you desire self-determination. The paradox is before you have even realized the goal, the world you have planned to create is OPPRESSIVE.

It is a paradox and an IRONY.

Buuhoodle functions independently/autonomously of Somaliland right this second.

But let's get to a larger point:

It is 2021; at some point rational minds will need to exercise their faculties and question what they think is "Truth."

1. Somaliland declared independence in 1991.
2. It js 2021 today.
3. Through Somalia's civil war, factionalism, isolation, terrorism, piracy, etc---no one recognized you.

The UN went from giving you "dual track" only to take even that back.

You want to know why?

It is so simple, I won't even highlight the reason.

You. Have. No. Legal. Basis. And. Even. More. Damningly. You. Can't. Feed. Yourself.

Is that clear?

That's literally the beginning, middle, and closing on the lie you have been led to believe for 30 years.

1. There is nothing legally binding, guiding, or backing the statement about being a "colony" and have a "case" for statehood.

2. It is actually the I. N. V. E. R. S. E. There is " encouragement" from OAU/AU to respect "final settlement", i. e. not attempt to seize, borders at the time of independence of a state.

3. Furthermore it is not part of a legal architecture, it is not binding and can't be argued for a case like recognition, it is a guiding "spirit"

You see this entire principle was never about ALLOWING like for "Somaliland;" it was always about PREVENTING things like "Ogaden War."

Once you get past that gross misunderstanding, you realize exactly flimsy your entire case was all along as shown by 0 recognition thus far

1.You don't have a religious, ethnic, or cultural case.
2.You were never seized but voluntarily joined in an act of union.
3. You are not self-sufficient nor even unified entirely on this matter.

And lastly, there is precedent everywhere that establishes the right of Buuhoodle's self-determination if you shall receive.

India and Pakistan united under British India, Cambodia and Vietnam united under French Indochina, etc are just some colonies that separated.

It is sort of ironic that your biggest argument is not even legally binding amd was intended for the inverse of your situation whereas Buuhoodle within Somaliland context actually has multiple legal precedents to lean on.

Now again, I am not like you or Somalia "nationalists" types; I do not have a rigid ideology on this and I am very accepting of the principle of Somaliland's right to self-determination.

All of Somaliland in whatever choice(s) they make.

Thank you, could not have said it better myself. I'm surprised OP isn't aware of how the Nigerian civil war panned out for the Igbo people's efforts in fighting for their independence from the fulani dominated North. If the Igbo - a people who had a legitimate reason for wanting to secede (cultural and religious) failed to convince the AU then what chance do the Isaaq really have?

Even if Somaliland gets independence, that will set a precedent with every protectorate attempting to break away opening up a can of worms the world would rather not see or experience.

[BigBreak]

You Somalians really are weird folks I have to say. I'll just have to bust a few myths and say what's fact:

1. Somaliland was an independent country BEFORE we entered a failed union with Somalia albeit for 5 days but oh well it is a fact. Restoring our independence does not equal secession. Many independence movements in Africa eg Biafra have NEVER been an independent country or even a separate colonial possession
2. The failed union Somaliland joined in 1st July 1960 was ILLEGAL as it was never legally ratified hence another positive for SL being legitimately independent today
3. Kuwait and Qatar are identical in ethnicity, language, religion yet nobody in either country calls for unification
4. Many non Isaaq including Harti inside SL support independence, this is undeniable the truth and whoever wishes to ignore this then I can't help you
5. Buhodle is just one renegade village that will one way or another will return to SL jurisdiction, they have been part of us since the late 19th century. Somaliland controls well over 90% of its territory unlike failed states that are "recognized" such as Somalia, Libya and Yemen.

[BigBreak]

I will add that if Somalia refuses to withdraw its recognition of Kosovo as a country then no doubt expect Somaliland receives recognition from Serbia. Likewise if Somalia dares to recognise Northern Cyprus due to Turkey's pressure then again expect SL to be recognised by both Cyprus and Greece.

The game is up, not only is Somaliland never going to lose its sovereignty or borders ever again but as a result of the world becoming more multipolar SL receiving recognition is a matter of WHEN not IF. Check mate

[Voltage]

Yet you have received no recognition from Serbia nor Cyprus and neither Greece.

I lose no sleep on this issue---I honestly must tell you. I "rarely" think about Somaliland and when I do, I do so with 0 attachment, meaningful interest, or emotional connection having already accepted and affirmed you wish to leave.

There is no "check mate" hear for me. I woud encourage you to have an emotoonal response proportionate to the nature of the discussion here. This is a friendly exchange of viewpoints initiated by your person.

I will just say this;

1. I do not foresee any change in Somaliland's present status without Somalia initiating recognition process.
2. More than the pevious OAU guiding spirit, there is a precedent established in Africa saying situations like this Somalia's lead will be followed. Think Eritrea-Ethiopia in early 90's or Suden-South Sudan last decade.
3. I do not force any possibility of recognition from Somalia with Somaliland breaking away with pro-Somalia communities.


With that said, nothing else about Somaliland case affects or concerns me even if the status quo is infinity.