I am actually genuinely curious; if you don't support Somaliland, is there amy outcome that would change your mind?

[Gubbet]

I am really curious and I am interested in hearing from anyone who does not support Somaliland right with a special importantace to Northern Harti opinion.

Are you dead set against Somaliland separating? Is there any possibility or outcome where you can see yourself changing your mind? Legal issues aside, what do you think about their right to self-determination?

I am curious, because I have never seem this question polled.

I ask because for the last 8-9 years I think I have been in a very extreme minority.

There are D-Block folks who are very much against Somaliland because of clan calculations as there are H-Block folks primarily support Somaliland for similar clan calculations, a sort of marriage of convenience.

Now obviously, that's not every D or H,; but I brought that up to contrast with my odd position of coming directly from the "devil's lair" ("clan") and making a personal decision to support the right to self-determination of SNM folk purely on their right to and not even putting relevance to legalese.

That right to self-determination I have also consistently applied to other communities in the former British Somaliland territory whose case I argue is only dormant now---but never rhe less, on the point of the right to self-determination particularly and uniquely resulting from their experience during SNM, I believe to the tips of my toes their choice to exercise and push that lever is enough for me to say my role here is to accept their decision and not even bringing up ant legal or whatever arguments.

So I am curious----if you are a supporter of Somaliland and/or its independence declaration right this moment, is there any outcome or possiblity that you could see yourself RIGHT NOW accepting the people of Somaliland's right to self-determination?

To make this more clear;

1. Forget about legal iissues at all (or maybe do talk about a legal outcome that COULDA change your mind

2. And also, let us stick directly to SNM-blood heritage group for this one (or basically separate for instance Gudabiirsi and Northern Darod issues who will be part of the Somaliland issue are not as a clan aggregate being informed by the SNM experience)

Is there any outcome that would make you accept Hargeia's right to self determination purely on its own merit?

[nine]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

[grandpakhalif]

I genuinely support their recognition, if Arabs can have a dozen or so states why cant Somalis? Djibouti is a prime example. Perhaps if Mogadishu would sign those papers the relations between the two would improve drastically. Theyve already been independent for 30 years with relative stability and some sort of democratic heel that shows their responsibility.

In my younger days I was vehemently against breaking up the country but the state of the country today is a gloomy one indeed so I dont blame them for abandoning ship. You know me as pessimist but I think i am a realist SL has great potential if she can gain access to international markets. So why should other Somalis be xaasid? Let her go.

[Khalid Ali]

For most koonfurians somaliland issue is an emotional one. Why are u leaving. For example for 30 years they are trying to reconstitute a Somalia state. So when ever somaliland comes to the surface. They get confused. Most of the koonfurians don't know the difference between political independence. And people's independence. You will hear slogans such as ummadi Somaliyeed ba la kala jaray. This is absurd because dad kala tagay majiraan. Sida la isku xukumayo uunba lugu kala tegey. Good nine your very honest if your clan was in Somaliland. You would also support Somaliland. For us Somaliland we have a different ideological mindset which set us apart from Somalia. We hope we can all get along who knows maybe in 100 years we can set something up such as the European Union with the same currency and passport. Something like what Kenya Tanzania are doing with the east African block. But for that to happen there has to be mutual respect mutual understanding of the future and the past. And to live side by side as two seperate countries. Waxa kale oo dhan walaga heshiin kara. Let's hope we don't turn into bitter enemies like Ethiopia and Eritrea. Its good to see more darood support for Somaliland.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

[Khalid Ali]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

What do you mean by not strategically viable to be a county. You mean our location is bad. Sxb we are on the red sea and the golf of aden.

[Gubbet]

I was looking for a way to respond to all three of you l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y touching on 3 different corners of the TRIANGLE, if there ever was a triangle, face bu the average non-Somaliland Somali.

1. Economic interest expressed by Union
2. Personal growth expressed by Grandpa
3. Somalism/Somalinimo critiqued by Khalid.

I was looking through my past interactions with this subject trying to see what informed my own similar growth on thís issue and I came across the following post I wrote about 2 years ago which seemed to speak for me even better than I originally remember.

The truth is my position is informed by one simple thing; Liberty.

Liberty. Freedom. There is no compulsion even in Religion; why should there be in politics?

Speaking for myself, I have actually found that I am continuously evolving more moderate on the issue. I remember being very, very partisan where I would even debate the figures of casualties. A long time ago, I realized even if I wasn't heartless, the effect of that position was sheer callousness and disregard for human life. I made the decision never to provide a counter-argument or contest anything related to it because even if ONE PERSON was a casualty that was one too many.

I have since only tried to debate about the origins of the whole issue, trying to contextualize the government response---anything beyond that I end participation because it is inappropriate and inhumane for me to contest their experience with effects of the war.

Now, my evolution on this issue is actually at a stage where I find it inppropriate to even contest the origins of the issue itself! No one admires Aabe Siyaad more than I (or as much as anyone else) and to me he is a symbol and an example of Somali leadership at it's finest with his grit, vision, strength, and determination----but the reality is only God and his apostles are beyond reproach. Everything else about Mankind is subject to critique.

As fine as our leader, the contract that brought him to power was a Coup not a free and fair ballot. This means when rebellions started, they were never breaking something they co-signed to. They were not being "traitors" to the State, but If I must be fair, simply choosing to remove one "representation" of it without an original legitimate contract (i.e it was a coup).

Even if Aabe Siyaad was Mother Theresa X10, he would still be without an original legitimate contract unless a truly fair and free election took place that bestowed legitimacy on his leadership----as has happened in Nigeria for example (Obasanjo came by coup, then later come back again through fair elections).

So really, there is no legitimate reason for me to even try to contest the beginnings of rebellions because even if the gov had done 0 wrong---as long as it was in the state of being born from a coup and thereby without an original approved contract with the Somali people, then the method it came to power is justification enough for rebellion...even if it was the best of govs.

So I am actually moving to a place where I completely defer to reer Hargeisa on the entire circumstances.

For them to explain why they rebelled, why they chose armed combat, what they suffered, what effect it is continuing to have on them.

All of that is for them to tell me and us.

My role, I am starting to embrace, is to shut up and listen and practice humility and genuinely strengthen my empathy.

https://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewto ... 5#p4968888

Somaliland, I hope you change your mind but if your position stays committed to this choice---then I look forward to seeing you at the negotiating table with a just, amicable, and mutually supported decision to let you go on and pursue your dreams separately.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

What do you mean by not strategically viable to be a county. You mean our location is bad. Sxb we are on the red sea and the golf of aden.

Yes. Losing that would be bad. You sit on a strategic pass. Only a nacas would completely give that away. It isn’t in realm of what a self interested leader from Konfuur would do whether that is a Hawiye or Darood. I agree with some form of autonomy. The capital and the Presidency. Let Konfuur be PM. You earned that right because you did well with the little you have. I have no cuqdad. This is strategic business. I’m for empowering Isaaqs in Somalia.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

Khalid,

And you would lose oil revenues and business interests in Konfuur as well. You wouldn’t have access to the fertile farmland and agriculture. Even though Ethiopia is closer; the difference that is Amharas would never allow you to own in their degaans, same with Oromos, etc. plus the world is getting smaller. All Somalis need to cooperate and dominate the Horn. That happens through a strong union. Whether is our current marriage or divorce with a Somali bloc with three countries. It’s always business sxb.

[Gubbet]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

Saddam, the same way I disdain when I talk about anyone but Marehan having primacy to inform what our equity is the same principle I reserve for Isaaq to inform what their equity is.

Berbera is theirs, not ours. Even Somalia the state can't claim to own it more than Isaaq since we abolished Somalia itself to revert back to our clan sovereignty.

The entire point of federalism is recognition "Somalia" itself is a contract only made possible by the Clans as shareholder.

Isaaq are not a shareholder of the Somalia formed in Arta and Embagathi, let us be real.

Without even going into anything else, Somalia wouldn't get any benefit from Berbera or Gulf of Aden anyhow having refused recognition of separation.

There would only be two options;

1. Somalia would "contain" Somaliland meaning not engaging--- like right now---which would have Berbera and Gulf of Aden outside of Somalia's control to begin with.

2. Or Somalia would *engage" aka war and conflict. In that case, not only would Berbera amd Gul of Aden be even less viable use economically, but this option would be even unthinkable, intolerable, absolutely mind-blowing ridiculous.

Realistically, I think what Somalia should be preparing its citizens for is not trying to limite Somaliland's self determination but instead pushing for an expansion of that same self-determination to all the communities and components of Somaliland through a credible, mutually supported current referedum effective the point nat negotiations.

And I would not be politically immature about this point if I were the Somaliland lads as this is the bare minimum we all know Somalia would condition to the negotiations if and when Somalia is political mature amd strong enough to accept the inevitability of that table.

[Khalid Ali]

Khalid,

And you would lose oil revenues and business interests in Konfuur as well. You wouldn’t have access to the fertile farmland and agriculture. Even though Ethiopia is closer; the difference that is Amharas would never allow you to own in their degaans, same with Oromos, etc. plus the world is getting smaller. All Somalis need to cooperate and dominate the Horn. That happens through a strong union. Whether is our current marriage or divorce with a Somali bloc with three countries. It’s always business sxb.

Somalia is economically in a worse situation then us the fertile land is currently of no use in Somalia. It could have fed the entire east Africa. But you are retarded and so are your leaders. We can't dominate anything sawdigan adiga iga lalada. When u let me be. Then we can have mutual cooperation. Laakin intad leedahay isku wadan banu nahay. Wa halki reer xamar ka eh jugjug meeshaada joog.

[ReturnOfMariixmaan]

I understand SL mentality and sympthaize with them but no Country wants to lose land apart from Malaysia kicking out Singapore.
10% of the World trade is through the Suez Canal No sane diplomat or military leader would give up access to the Red Sea.
I am being a bit two faced because if Marehan and Isaaq switched places I would be a staunch secessionist.

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

Saddam, the same way I disdain when I talk about anyone but Marehan having primacy to inform what our equity is the same principle I reserve for Isaaq to inform what they're equity is.

Berbera is theirs, not ours. Even Somalia the state can't claim to own it more than Isaaq since we abolished Somalia itself to revert back to our clan sovereignty.

The entire point of federalism is recognition "Somalia" itself is a contract only made possible by the Clans as shareholder.

Isaaq are not a shareholder of the Somalia formed in Arta and Embagathi, let us be real.

Without even going into anything else, Somalia wouldn't get any benefit from Berbera or Gulf of Aden anyhow having refused recognition of separation.

There would only be two options;

1. Somalia would "contain" Somaliland meaning not engaging--- like right now---which would have Berbera and Gulf of Aden outside of Somalia's control to begin with.

2. Or Somalia would *engage" aka war and conflict. In that case, not only would Berbera amd Gul of Aden be even less viable use economically, but this option would be even unthinkable, intolerable, absolutely mind-blowing ridiculous.

Realistically, I think what Somalia should be preparing its citizens for is not trying to limite Somaliland's self determination but instead pushing for an expansion of that same self-determination to all the communities and components of Somaliland through a credible, mutually supported current referedum effective the point nat negotiations.

And I would not be politically immature about this point if I were the Somaliland lads as this is the bare minimum we all know Somalia would condition to the negotiations if and when Somalia is political mature amd strong enough to accept the inevitability of that table.

I caught your lil liberal dig upping of my old fkd savageness lmao. Funny we finally have ideological differences. I’m moderate on Somaliland, I acknowledge the genocide and the poor decision making towards the end of Kacaan. But does that warrant us the South letting them go? Brother Gedo is getting bombed day and night. I have empathy that I didn’t before, that I have now. I was a hardliner on Union. Now I’m more pragmatic and understand why their hardliners hate Siad Barre. But he fought for the same principle that Abiy is fighting for in Tigray. Both were ugly demonstrative displays of gross state power. But if we let go of Somaliland, what’s stopping Puntland, Hirshabelle, Jubaland, etc from doing the same? I acknowledge the clan federalism. What it is missing is a Napoleonic code and a new Bill of Rights and US constitution. The 13 colonies were like Somalia today until they came together and wrote the Articles of Confederation and the US constitution. We need law that everybody accepts and order in being a country that acknowledges the ugly nature of its past and present as well. Konfuur needs to humble themselves and give the keys to the kingdom to Somalilanders whether that is Isaaqs or Harti or Gadabursi. Reer Waqooyi should run the country for a bit. The Konfuur is a utter failure and shitshow. That’s my instinctual reply. I’ll answer more structured with ur reply.

#YeRantOver

[Gubbet]

Khalid, I don't think anyone has asked for your opinion on this issue, but in the event of a separation; clearly reer Somalia minus British treaty signstories will be considered foreign nationals or aliens to Somaliland.

Speaking foe your specific community of Isaaq, what will Isaaq be to Somalia?

I am generally about your position on this.

[Gubbet]

Ofc a Reer Kooshin would have the most logical argument for Unionism. It isn’t strategic viable for Somaliland to be a country. Federalism is their own play. I’ll give them capital. They’ll know what to do with it. I prefer Isaaqs because they are the closet to Daroods in dhaqan and nidaam.

Saddam, the same way I disdain when I talk about anyone but Marehan having primacy to inform what our equity is the same principle I reserve for Isaaq to inform what they're equity is.

Berbera is theirs, not ours. Even Somalia the state can't claim to own it more than Isaaq since we abolished Somalia itself to revert back to our clan sovereignty.

The entire point of federalism is recognition "Somalia" itself is a contract only made possible by the Clans as shareholder.

Isaaq are not a shareholder of the Somalia formed in Arta and Embagathi, let us be real.

Without even going into anything else, Somalia wouldn't get any benefit from Berbera or Gulf of Aden anyhow having refused recognition of separation.

There would only be two options;

1. Somalia would "contain" Somaliland meaning not engaging--- like right now---which would have Berbera and Gulf of Aden outside of Somalia's control to begin with.

2. Or Somalia would *engage" aka war and conflict. In that case, not only would Berbera amd Gul of Aden be even less viable use economically, but this option would be even unthinkable, intolerable, absolutely mind-blowing ridiculous.

Realistically, I think what Somalia should be preparing its citizens for is not trying to limite Somaliland's self determination but instead pushing for an expansion of that same self-determination to all the communities and components of Somaliland through a credible, mutually supported current referedum effective the point nat negotiations.

And I would not be politically immature about this point if I were the Somaliland lads as this is the bare minimum we all know Somalia would condition to the negotiations if and when Somalia is political mature amd strong enough to accept the inevitability of that table.

I caught your lil liberal dig upping of my old fkd savageness lmao. Funny we finally have ideological differences. I’m moderate on Somaliland, I acknowledge the genocide and the poor decision making towards the end of Kacaan. But does that warrant us the South letting them go? Brother Gedo is getting bombed day and night. I have empathy that I didn’t before, that I have now. I was a hardliner on Union. Now I’m more pragmatic and understand why their hardliners hate Siad Barre. But he fought for the same principle that Abiy is fighting for in Tigray. Both were ugly demonstrative displays of gross state power. But if we let go of Somaliland, what’s stopping Puntland, Hirshabelle, Jubaland, etc from doing the same? I acknowledge the clan federalism. What it is missing is a Napoleonic code and a new Bill of Rights and US constitution. The 13 colonies were like Somalia today until they came together and wrote the Articles of Confederation and the US constitution. We need law that everybody accepts and order in being a country that acknowledges the ugly nature of its past and present as well. Konfuur needs to humble themselves and give the keys to the kingdom to Somalilanders whether that is Isaaqs or Harti or Gadabursi. Reer Waqooyi should run the country for a bit. The Konfuur is a utter failure and shitshow. That’s my instinctual reply. I’ll answer more structured with ur reply.

#YeRantOver

It was a topping on the creme although none would have been the wiser if you hadn't alluded to yourseld as I purposely left out the address.

And Saddam, we have had significant ideological divergence outside of our shared hawkish/Right-wing views non Marehan equity (as every Somali should be of their community and in fact I literally recognize as an inherent right of Isaaq over their political future).

I use divergence and not disagreement, because it is mostly me with the very strong, ideological espoused position when we see differently. You are actually more realistic as I said before and cognizant of nuance. It is very odd Saddam, the public impression of you through fkds and all are very ironic when I honestly describe you as one of the most sensitive or perceptive individuals to nuance in very contested positions. It is why you are very well suited to peacemaker or enforcer.

I am learning to not be so rigid or dogmatic over ideological positions, but the 5 star theory, nationalism, irredentism, the discrepancy between how far clan can have primacy as a risk to national strategy ala Janan, even what is forgivable in political expression that is diverse vs uniform are some of a number of major divergence we have im recent times.

[STARKAST]

It’s quite simple.

Balkanisation will be end of Somalia.
Why would Puntland stay ? Jubbaland will be annexed by Kenya.
1 clan cannot dictate to the ethnic group called Somali.

Reer Sanaag is in PL. *Segments* of Reer Sool is on payroll.

This is a dysfunctional state.

The status quo shall remain the same for a long time.

I propose the obvious answer proper power sharing according to pure and simple population.