UNION OR DIVISION: CEYDID'S `SINCERE QUEST' THREAD

[Galol]

Ceydid in his `Sincere Quest' seems to be saying that Somaliland should not secede. He based his argument on the laudable and factual claim that we are one people and that SL leaders and intellectuals have done a great disservice to the Somali race by not only seceding but also by letting the rest of the nation down by not serving as good example of leadership towards peace and reconciliation.

why don't they lead the whole nation towards peace instead of seceding and running away from the misery of the rest of the nation? He argued.

Powerful stuff.

So far, and I am trying to summarise, most respondents said " well, you can't blame them really".

Some said "Let us southerners sort our problems out before we can talk about somaliland". Again reasonable argument.

But is either argument infallible?

Lets discuss.

[Caydid]

Galol, where is my thread?

You forget to add that for outsiders we are all somalis- and that somalilanders have missed a great opportunity to take the captaincy when needed.


Logic dictates that you can't abandon your brother when he is in dire need.


The victimisation card is not good enough to secede. The unity card might work. In my opinion the biggest hurdle to somali unity is "the intellectual" folks who wants division

[B-MAX]

Caydid's logic.

Let's fly first Somalia's best Airforce Migs with the help of White South African mercenaries Pilots over Waqooyi Galbeed and bombard them to their Extinction and whatever left of them should take responsibility to rebuild and lead the rest of Somalia to Unity and brotherhood!

Jusus Christ! You must be on of hell of a Dalai Lama to put up with brutality and cruelity from the so called Somali Muslim Brothers who are telling you now Don't pull that "Victimisation card on me"!




....and Don't ever ask and wonder why Somalia cannot be a unified Country with a central Government as long as we've people like this Knucklehead!

[michael_ital]

LOOOOOOOL @ "Let's fly first Somalia's best Airforce Migs "

F'uck, are they still even airworthy???

[B-MAX]

Mike


Somalia - Air Force
The Somali Air Force (SAF), initially known as the Somali Aeronautical Corps, operated most of its aircraft from bases near Mogadishu and Hargeysa. Its mission was to support ground forces.

Since the Ogaden War, the SAF's performance had been hindered by inadequate equipment, lack of spare parts, and poor maintenance. During the late 1980s, however, the SAF managed to deploy some of its fighter aircraft against rebels in northern Somalia. Some of these aircraft were kept operational by Zimbabwean contract personnel.

In 1990 the SAF was organized into three fighter ground attack squadrons equipped with J-6 and Hawker Hunter aircraft; three fighter squadrons equipped with MiG-21MF and MiG-17 aircraft; a counterinsurgency squadron equipped with SF-260W aircraft; a transport squadron equipped with An-2, An-24, An-26, BN-2, C-212, and G-222 aircraft; and a helicopter squadron equipped with Mi-4, Mi-8, and Augusta-Bell aircraft. The SAF also possessed a variety of training aircraft such as the MiG-15UTI, the SF-260W, the Yak-11, and the Cessna. The SAF used Somali Airlines aircraft to ferry troops and supplies to war zones.




http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... rforce.htm

[michael_ital]

even the russinas have problems keeping the MiG 21's airborne. How can Somalia do it in 2006?

[gurey25]

Airforce looool
nah serioulsy an often neglected but strategicaly, vital resource are the dozens of Qat carrying transport planes, that due to the free market forces, deliver your qat to lots of remote and innaccesable locations in somalia.
Who ever controls enough of them will have one hell of an advantage, when it comes to a war.

===============================================

Now back to the quateion.

Caydid What responsibility?
What captaincy?

Tell me exactly what do you think the SNM should have done, when the USC and hawiye split and started to slaughter each other.
As you know in 89 the SNM, SPM and USC decided on a future interim government with ceydiid as President.
When the fiasco with ali mahdi came, and all of a sudden he claimed president of all somalia, what do you think we should have done?

send some of the thousends of unemployed SNM to the south, to aide one side over the other?


We said fok this , and left.

so blame yourselves not us.

even today all talk of Somaliland and unity is totaly bullshit, until you get your house in order.

[Gedo_Boy]

what is 'Sincere Quest'? is that a book Caydid wrote or something?

[Somaliweyn]

<<what is 'Sincere Quest'? is that a book Caydid wrote or something?>>



It's a topic the Somnet user Ceydid wrote, not the late General (a.h.u.n)

[Somaliweyn]

This issue has been discussed many times but has always been blurred by clanism and childish name-calling. Let us discuss this issue at a mature level, no namecalling, no clans-dissing etc.

To understand the Somaliland issue one has to place it in the right setting, both historically and the post-1991 situation.

On the eve of the Union between North and South:

North and South united with minimal powersharing arrangements. This resulted in all power going to the Somali capital: Mogadishu.

The rush towards the union of 1960 was mainly on the part of the people and most politicians of the then British Somaliland. This rush was understandable when looked at the then Somali nationalist movement in all of Somali lands. In this period the rush towards union of all Somali lands was a goal, with the union between North and South as the first step to achieve the ultimate goal. Also the lack of experience with statehood, politics etc was a main cause of the rush towards union without clear powersharing arrangements between the two states.

That is the past and one has to learn from the mistakes then made.

On the eve of barre's collapse: the setting of post-1991

Around 1989, all jabhads agreed on some form of government like Gurey said. But what most of Somalis underestimate or forget is the organisation of these jabhads, there was a minimal organisation and the only unity within and between these jabhads was on one thing: getting rid of Barre. After barre was defeated the main jabhad (USC) fell in disunity.

In 1991, when the government fell the clan-civil war started between major clans and within major clans. The North after freeing the region from the remaining SNA troops rushed towards the declaration of Independance. One says this was so because things went bad in Mogadishu as the clashes within the USC worsened.

But as Ceydiid rose a reasonable point, why didn't reer Waqooyi put all it's effort on playing a keyrole in the political struggle? What if reer Waqooyi channeled all the effort they put in the independance/secession issue into participating in Somali affaires, propagating for Hargeyso as an interim-seat of the government and playing a mediating role etc. If that happened things would be interesting now, and would change the whole political landscape of Somalia.

But things went as we know, Reer Waqooyi rushed towards independance and recognition, alienating themselves from the rest of Somalis. The same rush-mistake as in 1960, rushing towards something without first evaluating the long-term impact it will have. Now the people of Somaliland have alienated themselves from the rest of the Somali family, they have become a deviant group within Somali society.

The current setting: political turmoil in the South, with warlords dominating the politics of the South.

Reer Waqooyi are right when they say that they don't want to participate in the circus conferences with the warlords of the South. They are also right when they say to the South: Fix your house, then we talk.

Because of this current setting, we as Southerners shouldn't even talk about the issue of Somaliland without first talking about the situation in the South and changing it. This however does not mean that we should support the secession and recognition of Somaliland. We oppose the seccesion and recognition of Somaliland and will always do on the ground of Somali National Interest and Security as our arch-enemy Ethiopia wants us to desert our legitimate case of freeing Somali lands and people under the rule of Non-Somalis agianst their will . Our opposition of Somalilands secession however does not mean we do not want the best for the people of Somaliland, on the contrary, we want the best for them. We know the people of Somaliland support the seccesion just because there's no other alternative, with the south being in mess. This however is not a convincing and strong argument to seccede and will be refuted when the South cleans its mess.

In short,

The secession and recognition of Somaliland is in the hands of us Southerners, particularly the people of Mogadishu. We can eather fix the mess in the South, or let the warlords ruin it for us and for all of Somalis, giving the Somaliland secessionists more leverage in their recognition propaganda.

[gurey25]

Intersting quation rasised here.
Why did the Somalilanders isolate themsleves and not help mediate
why did they not take a leading role in somali politics, as they did during thier struggle for independance?.

Ok this requires ambition and greed, coupled with the belief that it is your
clan that should rule over all others, as if it is your right.

This however was absent from the political culture of our people,
we have alwasy believed and practiced power sharing and balanced of power. Our smallest clans were equal to the largest.
This mindset extended to the SNM, every subclan was expected to arm thier own jabhad, and liberate thier own traditional lands.
This also extended to realtionships with other clans, it was the contiuation of the same logic that USC should be formed, and operate in thier areas.

Now contrast this to our North Eastern Cousins, and thier SSDF,
they were against the formation of the SNM and after its formation,
attempted to convince it to join witht he SSDF, ofcourse under North Eastern Guidance and Tutelage.

This is just a glimps of the differances in political culture.


but you are right, it would have been interesting if those in the SNM,
also believed that they were the ""royal family"' the rightfull rulers of somalia.
Imagine if that was the case,then Hargiesa would have been the capital,
and you would be writing in this forum about the evil north westerners and thier hunger for power.

Now ironicaly we are we are being maligned for believing in balance of power and pawersharing?


==========================================
On a lighter note,
Somaliweyne i see that you are getting more eloqount, and your political education more advanced.
I still see you have your idealism, quite endearing really.
Unfortunatley Politics can only be grasped by a cynic,
becuase in politics there is no right or wrong,
no strong arguments or weak arguments.

There are only winners and losers.
im sure Nolol cusub understands this too

===============================================

[Caydid]

Bmax, Millions of somalis were against the actions of a government that was made up military communists. Many southerners emptied their bombs in fields instead of attacking the fleeing masses. A number of pilots landed in Djibouti. Do you hear these facts from the self appointed representatives of somaliland?????? No, all you hear is that everyone in the south is equally responsible. All you hear from them is that the answer lies in independence (what would that bring?).

Gurey, several organisations (movements) were formed to crash the power hold of Afwqeyne and his junta. Many of these were formed as popular movements only to be turned into tribal liberation movements. The SNM (somali national movement) was never a movement created to strive for independence. It was a pan somali movement intent on change.


You asked what reponsibility and what captaincy? I though a person of your intelligence- I say that in a positive spirit knows what I meant. The people of somaliland were pioneers as far as development was concerned. It was their will and intelligence which made somalia to unite. It is a fact that the people of somaliland were the most educated; they were mature for force. Their leadership role and love of somalis was not hidden from anyone.

Historically they have played a role in the management of somalia and somalis. I bet you to go to any east african nation or a country in the middle east and the people of somaliland represent a leadership role. They are the true face of somalia outside somalia.

This is in jeopardy from the self styled intellectuals, an elite, a people who have been bombarded with a message based on hatred.

This is what I am taking bout.

Some people talk about divorce , marriage and family metaphors. I think the bondage is more that. We were never married. We were bonded naturally. A twin if you like.

But the major question that should be discussed is what is independence considering the way things are run today.


Somaliweyne, a good analysis.

[Caydid]

Gurey and Galol,
I forgot to ask you this: do you really think once independent somaliland would be different from other african nations??? Isn't there the risk that independency leads to a civil war. Look at our own history. The calm years were followed by tribalism.

[Lord Diplock]

Both Somalia and Somaliland are failed states, the former will never recover and is doomed to be the centre of mindless killings and violence and the latter, will also failed insofar as it's a state based on one clan delusionary aspirations. I hope I am wrong, but my bets are safe I reckon.

Thank f*ck I am not from eithing of them and have no relations there and will probably never go there even if I paid to.

[Caydid]

Lord Diplock,

If you are a somali by birth you would always be haunted by somalia's problems and cherish at its progress. Mark my words bro.