The puzzle of God & evil

[avowedly-agnostic]

As East Africa faces one of the worst period of droughts in decades, with hundreds of people and thousands of livestock reported dead from starvation and thirst, and with a worrying 11 million more people said to be at risk from starvation if urgent food and water supplies aren't distributed to the affected areas, one can't help but wonder why a supposedly benevolent and all merciful God would allow such an evil catastrophy to unfold.

My question to my Muslim brothers and sisters is the following: For what reason does Allah who describes Himself as benevolent and as the "Sustainer" allow to take place such immeasurable suffering, anguish and pain on one of the poorest regions on our planet? Why does Allah not intervene to help the helpless emaciated mother who can only look on with gaunt eyes knowing that she can't do anything to alleviate the suffering of her litle baby boy who's extremely malnourished to the extent where his rib cage is clearly visible?

Why does Allah who (it is said) possess benevolence and compassion far greater than our own, and who (it is also said) endowed us with these noble feelings that allows us empathy with those in need not prevent such malignant and evil incidents that'll claim (and have claimed in the recent past) thousands of human lives from ever taking place?

Countless are the examples where human beings have suffered appalling tragedies on a mass scale, such as the recent Pakistani-Kasmiri earthquake, which claimed the lives of some 70 thousand people including those of young innocent children, some of whom were still at school when the ground beneath them shook, not to mention the terrible Asian tsunami which swallowed up vast amounts of villiages killing innumerable thousands.

Doubtless some will argue that it is but a test from Allah; but why may I ask does the newly born innocent infant have to be subjected to such evil "trials" ? What crime has the liitle boy or girl who's perception of right and wrong, or good and evil is nil commited to be condemned to a slow and agonising death?

That painful image of the East African mother holding her dying infant in her lap is still fresh in my mind. I ask then, "why"? Why Does Allah, God, Jehovah, call Him what you will, why does He not prevent such terrible evils from ever happening in the first place? Is it because He's unable (in which case He's not worthy of our worship)? Or is it that He's unwilling (in which case He's malevolent and evil)? Since Allah (or God) is suppose to be Omnipotent (All-powerful) and benevolent, we can safely assume that it is not due to incompetence or unwillingness which hinders Providence from helping. It is because I put it to you, He does not exist.

[michael_ital]

you sound like a Jehovah witness pitchin the sale to get people to convert, usin the angst ridden question "Oh why oh why does he allow .... to happen."

Well, the answer is simple. To allow those more fortunate to appreciate what they have, and to give thanks for it. Who gets chosen, and why ?? also simple. Everybody suffers in one way shape or form or another. It's all relative. The world can't be a perfect place or else we'd never be able to keep things in perspective. We'd take everything for granted.

[avowedly-agnostic]

Your response isn't a terribly convincing one I'm afraid.

[quote]
Well, the answer is simple. To allow those more fortunate to appreciate what they have, and to give thanks for it. [quote]

So God lets thousands of innocents to perish on the off chance that you will appreciate that you are more fortunate? It doesn't sound very fair does it?

[/quote] Everybody suffers in one way shape or form or another.[quote]

Inform us then of how your suffering or grievance is in any way comparable to those mothers who watch on helplessly as their little ones are reduced to little more than bones.

[michael_ital]

Didn't say it was fair. Anyone who assumes that is terribly naive.

Watch someone very close to you wither up and die of cancer, and tell me you can diminish that person's pain as opposed to that mother's pain. Or go to a the Sick Kid's hospital her in Toronto and see all them kids dying of leukemia and shit. As I said, it's all relative. But as for me, I KNOW how fortunate I am.

[Love you]

Allah does not meddle in others internal affairs.
Xattaa yughayiruu maa bi anfusihim.
He's just watching over.

[Ureysoo]

*avowedly agonistic*

As I presuppose u are new 2 this forums, so let me wlc u aboard.

Back 2 our subject.

Ur comments ***why does He not prevent such terrible evils from ever happening in the first place? Is it because He's unable (in which case He's not worthy of our worship)? Or is it that He's unwilling (in which case He's malevolent and evil)? Since Allah (or God) is suppose to be Omnipotent (All-powerful) and benevolent, we can safely assume that it is not due to incompetence or unwillingness which hinders Providence from helping. It is because I put it to you, He does not exist***

War Heedhe, Our life on this earth has an unambiguous * raison d'être* and it’s not the consequence of phenomenal natural environment calamity, nor is it a chastisement 4 eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. We are here according 2 Allah’s plan and this worldly life is nothing but a test (through some tribulation), more like a chance 2 prove ourselves as praiseworthy of the eternal idyllic life in the hereafter. Like our prophet (PBUH) declared *You have not been created 2 perish, on the contrary, you have been created 4 eternal life*. Why would Allah create us and tolerate all of us 2 enter heaven, without testing our authenticity? It’s like u asking an instructor 2 put a student through 2 university without testing his knowledge throughout particular scrutiny. Well, since man-made systems got certain regularity and standards, don’t u think Allah’s precise religion is capable of doing so. And sorry 2 acknowledge u that u failed 2 perceive that, and determined 2 live the rest of ur life, sightless. Alongside only ineffectual individual will modify his notion about the existence of Allah, after s/he goes through rigid time, which illustrates that u wasn’t durable enough 2 reject other ideologies, and that assisted ppl 2 mislead u straightforwardly.

Ur comment ***He does not exist***

Allah’s revelations 2 human are not clouded by self-contradictory mysteries or irrational ideas, and the signs and testimonies of God's wisdom, power and existence are evident in the world around us, so don’t blind ur self. Above the beyond, I comprehend why atheists decided 2 dismiss Allah, after Darwin gave atheists the scientific guise they had been seeking 4 centuries, that time's most passionate atheists adopted his theory, but where that situates *agonistics*. What is their rationale 2 rebuff the mighty God commandments...

*Much Esteem and Reverence*

*Bless*

[LionHeart-112]

Michael...that's SomaliLight...don't waste your time.

[avowedly-agnostic]

Ureysoo
[quote]this worldly life is nothing but a test (through some tribulation), more like a chance 2 prove ourselves as praiseworthy of the eternal idyllic life in the hereafter.[/quote]

Much is said about natural disasters being some sort of test of faith from Allah, but you have yet to explain why children and the most vulnerable have to suffer. How are children whose perception of life and the mysterious of the external world are still infinitesimal suppose to understand and comprehend that the terrible catastrophe that's befallen them is a test from God. The picture of God you paint isn't the supposedly "Merciful" deity He's made out to be, but rather a God who visits wanton and pointless destruction on innocent men, women, and children.

Either God is able to prevent natural disasters from inflicting death, destruction and misery upon hundreds of thousands of His creatures and he chooses not to, (which is what you seem to be suggesting) or He doesn’t exist.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="michael_ital"] Well, the answer is simple.[quote]

This is gonna be a good one


[quote]To allow those more fortunate to appreciate what they have, and to give thanks for it. [quote]

Ok, but then it would be mean Allah is arbitrary and cruel. Disagree?



[quote]Who gets chosen, and why ?? also simple. Everybody suffers in one way shape or form or another.[quote]


Again, you're only telling us Allah is cruel and arbitrary.



[quote]It's all relative. [quote]


Once more unto the breach.... Allah is arbitrary and cruel.



[quote]The world can't be a perfect place or else we'd never be able to keep things in perspective. [/quote]

Yet again, Allah is cruel, selective and arbitrary.



If Allah is arbitrary, selective and cruel: he CAN'T be JUST. If he can't be just, then Allah is internally self-refuting (becuz YOU muslims say Allah is just and fair). ANY self-refuting entity by definition of axiom of existence, can't exist.

In conclusion, Allah doesn't exist. We live in a cruel and unjust world BECUZ and ONLY becuz the world is INDIFFERENT to us.

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Ureysoo"] Why would Allah create us and tolerate all of us 2 enter heaven, without testing our authenticity?[quote]

Why would he need to? He's God, with omnipotence and omniscience, he's PERFECT. A perfect being is in need of NOTHING. Not love, not worship, not obedience... otherwise that entity can't and isn't PERFECT.

If he needs to TEST us, then he is not omniscient, is he? What is a test for if he is said to know EVERYTHING before they even happen?

The logic hole in your line of reasoning is so huge one can fly through it a speeding Jumbo Jet.

I love Theodicy, the best beating stick against theists. Epicurus best summed up here:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

wanna tak a crack at it Mr. Verbiage?


[quote]It’s like u asking an instructor 2 put a student through 2 university without testing his knowledge throughout particular scrutiny.[quote]

So God is like humans then?



[quote]Alongside only ineffectual individual will modify his notion about the existence of Allah, [quote]


As I have demonstrated, Allah doesn't exist. Between believing a LIE and ONLY what I know to be true, I'll stick with what I know to be true and relegate all unknown/mysterious to 'yet to be understood' column.

Remember: A LOT of things we didn't understand were originally ascribed to God. Those selfsame things today are explained by science. I have no doubt in the future as more and more of our world is explained by science... they'll be less and less ppl believing in the EVER SHRINKING GOD.


Where has he been in the last several hundred years... in the old days he frequently made appearances, performed miracles and sent prophets but for some unexplained reasons he retreated to seclusion. WHY?

[Demure]

Agnostic or is it Somlight? You awefully sound familiar....hmmm!

In any case, One could argue that poor people suffer more than others, simply because they don't have the means or the money to avoid, prevent or recover from many disasters. So how is that God's fault? why couldn't it be their governments, leaders, communities, Clan elder's poor planning or lack of care? Natural disasters always existed so did death, we are all dying sooner or later(children included), and with the developing technologies, many of the deadly disasters can be largly tracked and avoided in a relatively timely manner.

So if your intention was to refute the existance of God from that angle, it's not working for me. All it's accomplishing is to show me you're a compassionate person who's angry at their helplessness and the world perhaps?

[dhuusa_deer]

[quote="Demure"]Agnostic or is it Somlight? You awefully sound familiar....hmmm![quote]

They're not the same person, take it from me. SomLight doesn't come to this site anymore. A-agnostic is a he, SomLight is a SHE.



[quote]In any case, One could argue that poor people suffer more than others, simply because they don't have the means or the money to avoid, prevent or recover from many disasters. [quote]


So what? Nothing is stopping Allah -- benovalent, omnipotent with free will entity -- from interferring on the behalf of the destitute. Why doesn't he do it? THAT, dear Demure, is the question asked. Your answer would have Allah redefined but I don't think that was your intention. Once Allah or ANY God is giving precise definition, ANY discrepency between his attributes and actions/behaviours calls into question his existance.



[quote]So if your intention was to refute the existance of God from that angle, it's not working for me?[/quote]

Actually, the issue of theodicy among others effectively refutes the existance omnipotent, benovalent with free will God. By choosing to do NOTHING in the face EVIL God is either not omnipoten or benovalent or doesn't have the free will. One of them has to give in.

[avowedly-agnostic]

[b]One could argue that poor people suffer more than others, simply because they don't have the means or the money to avoid, prevent or recover from many disasters. So how is that God's fault?[/b]

I'm not assigning blame to God at all. That would be terribly unjust of me considering I don't believe in God to begin with; I think that the notion of
an All-mighty God is a concoction, and as Bertrand Russell rightly put it "belongs to the infancy of human reason". My contention is that if one believes that there exists a God who is omniscient, (all-knowing of the past, present and future) and therefore had prior knowledge of the terrible events, and also ominpotent (all-powerful), therefore capable of acting to stop the catastrophe before it unfolds, and if at the same time you say that this God is a benevolent God who cares about the wellbeing of his creatures, then it naturally follows, why such a caring and loving God does not then prevent from happening cataclsymic events which wreak havoc on the lives of millions of his creatures?

This is one of the main challenges faced by the concept of God. Most humane persons in the world would if it were in their power to do so prevent the recent earthquake in Pakistan, or the Asian tsunami, or to bring it closer to home, the current famine and drought in our nativeland, so why isn't Allah whom you're so devoted to doing the same? Wouldn't you prevent an imminent earthquake that would kill 70 THOUSAND from happening if you could? I know I would.

[ERROR]

avowedly-agnostic, since you are talking about Allah and today's hardships in Africa, I would like to know about your religion, since it is relevant to this topic @ hand.

No matter whatever u believe, hardships are happening in all corners of the globe.

My question to you is are u a believer? if yes, which religion?

[Advocator]

[quote] They're not the same person, take it from me. SomLight doesn't come to this site anymore. A-agnostic is a he, SomLight is a SHE. [/quote]

how would you know ????????????????